5 ms·

> git really forces me to make a lot of decisions I don’t actually care about. How will I save my WIP while I’m off on this quest? Do I want to juggle stashes a

by theamk 2y ago

> git really forces me to make a lot of decisions I don’t actually care about. How will I save my WIP while I’m off on this quest? Do I want to juggle stashes and my working tree, or throw commits around? How will I get a commit where I want it? Do I need to come up with a branch name? And how much of all this needs to just sit in my head or pasteboard, lest I forget what I was in the middle of? I am hearing this argument a lot, but I don't really get it. My grocery store forces me to make a lot of decision when it offers me 7 kinds of ketchup and 20+ kinds of cereal, but no one says "I am avoiding large grocery stores because they force me to make too many decisions". If you are feeling adventurous, try something new. If you just want to get some food and go, grab your favorite brands. And yes, a smaller store won't force you to choose, but there is good chance you won't like the food you buy there. (For the problem described, I'd do as following: Save WIP work as temporary commit. No, you don't want to juggle stashes. You can do interactive rebase with "edit" mode and then cherry-pick extra commit - this'll let you make sure test passes after rebase too. Yes, you need to come up with branch name, any will go, like c_s_test. You will need to keep the name of previous branch in your head, but given author uses "develop" it should not be too bad. But this is all my preferences, if someone wants to do something else - more power to them.)

abhinavk 2y ago
A better analogy would be: You have 7 ways to the ketchup section with varying lengths.
- zamalek 2y ago
  Some will lead you into a universe from which you will never return.
- theamk 2y ago
  That can work too... "To get to the ketchup section, I can go via fresh produce row or via bread row or via canned food row... Which path do I pick? Going via produce row is faster but I need to pick up some hot dog buns..." On the other hand IKEA did design their showrooms so there is exactly one recommended way to get to any section. I find this highly annoying, but they keep doing this, so I am guessing some people like it?
sudahtigabulan 2y ago
> You will need to keep the name of previous branch in your head Not even that - "git checkout -" is like "cd -", but for branches. I have it on a short alias - cor. I do "cob asdf", do some work, then "cor". (I have 28 aliases for git alone, 2 or 3 letters each. And I still get to autocomplete any options when necessary, thanks to https://github.com/cykerway/complete-alias https://github.com/cykerway/complete-alias).
- incognito124 2y ago
  Don't you think having 28 aliases for the git incantations in your worflow is a clear signal something is wrong with git?
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Don't you think having 300+ commands in /bin is a clear signal something is wrong with Unix? No?
  - 000ooo000 2y ago
    This argument makes sense only if you think Git has, like, 2 uses.
  - sudahtigabulan 2y ago
    It's mostly because of my attempts to minimize keypresses due to RSI. I would end up with similar, albeit lower, number of aliases if I were to use jj.
    - keybored 2y ago
      Magit (for Emacs) is geared towards one-key-per-action/flag. E.g. `c` when you are in the Git Status window.
      - keybored 2y ago
        Meant to say that `c` triggers the “commit” interaction. Just `cc` if you want to commit without options.
eviks 2y ago
> offers me 7 kinds of ketchup and 20+ kinds of cereal, but no one says "I am avoiding They even write articles about decision paralysis and being overwhelmed by choice and all that, so yes the exact same issue apparently exists in that domain
malkia 2y ago
Almost anyone (above the age of 5) on this planet is familiar with food, not the case with `git` and it's obvious non-obviousness
- palata 2y ago
  I would argue that any professional developer should be familiar with basic manipulations in git...
  - malkia 2y ago
    You would be surprised. Google uses "g4" (e.g. "p4"-like), much like many game developers like me. It's not like we don't use "git" (we have devops/infra groups) - but lots of folks use Perforce/PlasticSCM/other systems that are not "git". Just because "git" is super-popular, does not mean that ANY PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPER SHOULD BE FAMILIAR with it... Sorry but no!
    - palata 2y ago
      Well if you can use jj, it means that you work against a git repository, doesn't it? Or does jj work with g4 repositories?
      - malkia 2y ago
        I guess I have to give `jj` a try then!
looperhacks 2y ago
> no one says "I am avoiding large grocery stores because they force me to make too many decisions" I say that. I 100% prefer going to the smaller store if I don't need anything "fancy" because the large offerings stress me out. That said I'm fine with git and don't care about Jujutsu, so I don't know what that says about me :)
Certhas 2y ago
But jj is as powerful as git. The choices are meaningless. If you have one piece of code that does what you need with four conceptually different types of state that interact in various ways when state is mutated, and another that does it with one type of state and a lot fewer interactions, what's the better architecture?
- ffsm8 2y ago
  A car and a bicycle fundamentally get you from point a to point b. Is the decision which you take meaningless if your destination is 50 miles away?
  - Certhas 2y ago
    You missed the point. The analogy was: Git has more choice and like having access to exotic Ketchups that can be nice. But jj can do anything that git can, so in the metaphor, git gives you a ton of choice but jj gives you all the same flavors. Now if jj makes you assemble several pieces and makes it more difficult to get the flavors, while with git you could just grab the correct bottle, you could argue that the choice git offers is not meaningless. But that's a hard sell. I think by now, there is pretty good evidence that the complexity of operating git is incidental. It's the result of badly designed primitives the user has to interact with (index, stash, commits, branches). As always, once you have internalized the primitives and their interactions, the complexity (mostly) disappears. But if you frequently train new students in using git, you stay painfully aware of it.
    - ffsm8 2y ago
      Or you're missing the point ( • ‿ • ) I think you've straight up reinforced my example. The end result is the same, but the way to get there is different. Depending on what your destination is, a different tool might ultimately turn out to be better for the job. Even if they're both representing their state in a compatible manner on disk. You're probably just not realizing that the way you interact with git isn't necessarily how everyone does - and that other people might have usecases that you've never thought about... Because you're not in their situation. So you're only seeing one way to reach the destination, which is why the one tool always looks like the correct choice. To be clear, my current day job really wouldn't get any value out of any of these features either. We're doing simple trunk development on various repositories with roughly 5 authors providing commits. Almost no merge conflicts, the most anyone does is git blame to figure out when the line was edited etc. under these circumstances, commits are essentially fire and forget and you're fine only interacting with the repository through your ide even.
sunshowers 2y ago
> I am hearing this argument a lot, but I don't really get it. My grocery store forces me to make a lot of decision when it offers me 7 kinds of ketchup and 20+ kinds of cereal, but no one says "I am avoiding large grocery stores because they force me to make too many decisions". I say that all the time. I hate decision paralysis. I'll specifically buy stuff in ways (such as online order + pickup) that I don't have to look at tons of different products.

by theamk 2y ago

abhinavk 2y ago

A better analogy would be: You have 7 ways to the ketchup section with varying lengths.

zamalek 2y ago
Some will lead you into a universe from which you will never return.
theamk 2y ago
That can work too... "To get to the ketchup section, I can go via fresh produce row or via bread row or via canned food row... Which path do I pick? Going via produce row is faster but I need to pick up some hot dog buns..." On the other hand IKEA did design their showrooms so there is exactly one recommended way to get to any section. I find this highly annoying, but they keep doing this, so I am guessing some people like it?

sudahtigabulan 2y ago

> You will need to keep the name of previous branch in your head Not even that - "git checkout -" is like "cd -", but for branches. I have it on a short alias - cor. I do "cob asdf", do some work, then "cor". (I have 28 aliases for git alone, 2 or 3 letters each. And I still get to autocomplete any options when necessary, thanks to https://github.com/cykerway/complete-alias https://github.com/cykerway/complete-alias).

incognito124 2y ago
Don't you think having 28 aliases for the git incantations in your worflow is a clear signal something is wrong with git?
- fragmede 2y ago
  Don't you think having 300+ commands in /bin is a clear signal something is wrong with Unix? No?
- 000ooo000 2y ago
  This argument makes sense only if you think Git has, like, 2 uses.
- sudahtigabulan 2y ago
  It's mostly because of my attempts to minimize keypresses due to RSI. I would end up with similar, albeit lower, number of aliases if I were to use jj.
  - keybored 2y ago
    Magit (for Emacs) is geared towards one-key-per-action/flag. E.g. `c` when you are in the Git Status window.
    - keybored 2y ago
      Meant to say that `c` triggers the “commit” interaction. Just `cc` if you want to commit without options.

eviks 2y ago

> offers me 7 kinds of ketchup and 20+ kinds of cereal, but no one says "I am avoiding They even write articles about decision paralysis and being overwhelmed by choice and all that, so yes the exact same issue apparently exists in that domain

malkia 2y ago

Almost anyone (above the age of 5) on this planet is familiar with food, not the case with `git` and it's obvious non-obviousness

palata 2y ago
I would argue that any professional developer should be familiar with basic manipulations in git...
- malkia 2y ago
  You would be surprised. Google uses "g4" (e.g. "p4"-like), much like many game developers like me. It's not like we don't use "git" (we have devops/infra groups) - but lots of folks use Perforce/PlasticSCM/other systems that are not "git". Just because "git" is super-popular, does not mean that ANY PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPER SHOULD BE FAMILIAR with it... Sorry but no!
  - palata 2y ago
    Well if you can use jj, it means that you work against a git repository, doesn't it? Or does jj work with g4 repositories?
    - malkia 2y ago
      I guess I have to give `jj` a try then!

looperhacks 2y ago

> no one says "I am avoiding large grocery stores because they force me to make too many decisions" I say that. I 100% prefer going to the smaller store if I don't need anything "fancy" because the large offerings stress me out. That said I'm fine with git and don't care about Jujutsu, so I don't know what that says about me :)

Certhas 2y ago

But jj is as powerful as git. The choices are meaningless. If you have one piece of code that does what you need with four conceptually different types of state that interact in various ways when state is mutated, and another that does it with one type of state and a lot fewer interactions, what's the better architecture?

ffsm8 2y ago
A car and a bicycle fundamentally get you from point a to point b. Is the decision which you take meaningless if your destination is 50 miles away?
- Certhas 2y ago
  You missed the point. The analogy was: Git has more choice and like having access to exotic Ketchups that can be nice. But jj can do anything that git can, so in the metaphor, git gives you a ton of choice but jj gives you all the same flavors. Now if jj makes you assemble several pieces and makes it more difficult to get the flavors, while with git you could just grab the correct bottle, you could argue that the choice git offers is not meaningless. But that's a hard sell. I think by now, there is pretty good evidence that the complexity of operating git is incidental. It's the result of badly designed primitives the user has to interact with (index, stash, commits, branches). As always, once you have internalized the primitives and their interactions, the complexity (mostly) disappears. But if you frequently train new students in using git, you stay painfully aware of it.
  - ffsm8 2y ago
    Or you're missing the point ( • ‿ • ) I think you've straight up reinforced my example. The end result is the same, but the way to get there is different. Depending on what your destination is, a different tool might ultimately turn out to be better for the job. Even if they're both representing their state in a compatible manner on disk. You're probably just not realizing that the way you interact with git isn't necessarily how everyone does - and that other people might have usecases that you've never thought about... Because you're not in their situation. So you're only seeing one way to reach the destination, which is why the one tool always looks like the correct choice. To be clear, my current day job really wouldn't get any value out of any of these features either. We're doing simple trunk development on various repositories with roughly 5 authors providing commits. Almost no merge conflicts, the most anyone does is git blame to figure out when the line was edited etc. under these circumstances, commits are essentially fire and forget and you're fine only interacting with the repository through your ide even.

sunshowers 2y ago

> I am hearing this argument a lot, but I don't really get it. My grocery store forces me to make a lot of decision when it offers me 7 kinds of ketchup and 20+ kinds of cereal, but no one says "I am avoiding large grocery stores because they force me to make too many decisions". I say that all the time. I hate decision paralysis. I'll specifically buy stuff in ways (such as online order + pickup) that I don't have to look at tons of different products.