4 ms·

Hating the F-35 in general has been a thing for the Anti-American crowd, mainly driven by western peaceniks who don't see a point in military might (largely dep

Hating the F-35 in general has been a thing for the Anti-American crowd, mainly driven by western peaceniks who don't see a point in military might (largely depleted now) and the pro-Russia/China/etc crowd who need it to be shit so their fighters can seem competent. As is usual the latter "inform" the former.

dundarious 2y ago
Criticism of the F-35 is not politically polarized -- critics exist on a broad political spectrum. "Western peaceniks" and "pro-Russia/China/etc" are a small subset.
- relaxing 2y ago
  There’s also the pro-Boeing crowd.
- adrr 2y ago
  Or that F-35 failed its goals. Double the price. 50% more expensive than estimated operational cost. Its 3x the price to operate than a F16. Planes are obsolete technologies, should have invested in drones/loitering munitions. In 10 years, its all going to be drones.
  - SonicScrub 2y ago
    > Planes are obsolete technologies, should have invested in drones/loitering munitions. In 10 years, its all going to be drones. This is speculation on what the future will be, not our current reality. In the War in Ukraine, reliance on cheap drones has more to do neither sides ability to achieve air superiority due to AA systems. Introduce stealth and/or effective SEAD tactics (suppression of enemy air defense) into that mix, and the situation changes very quickly. For a recent example, see the Israeli strikes on Iranian air defense systems. The future is more likely to be hybrid, where drones, and "loyal wingman" data-linked with manned systems are used to get the best of both worlds. The F35's sensor suite and data-link capability are designed for that.
    - ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
      What is the use case for a manned missile taxi anyway? Does it have the agency to fire at will or does it need to confirm all attacks? Edit: i guess in high EW environments where you need fast delivery
feedforward 2y ago
Hey taxpayer! You don't like the estimated $1.5 trillion going to Lockheed Martin for their hunk of junk F35? Then you're just like Forbes, Bloomberg, the Washington Post and the other anti-American ChiComs who are saying all this because "they need it to be shit". Your rant is almost as inspiring as the Palantir CEO's flag waving speeches where he rants against the anti-America crowd who question why their tax dollars are flowing to his company.
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  Your post is his point
  - mmooss 2y ago
    How does the GP represent anti-Americans or peaceniks?
Teever 2y ago
Do you think that any criticism of the F-35 project is acceptable?
- some_random 2y ago
  Yeah absolutely, when it's based in actual fact. The F-35 project is a fantastic example of how out of control defense projects can become, it's parts sourcing in partner nations is questionable when those partner nations are liable to go procure S-400, parts commonality between A, B, and C is pretty terrible for three jets that are supposed to be variants, the list goes on.
cfcfcf 2y ago
It being dysfunctional is a convenient stick for this crowd to beat it with, but I wouldn't discount the issues. The U.S.'s allies aren't exactly thrilled with it.
- some_random 2y ago
  Is it dysfunctional though? There have been issues with it (landing gear and helmets come to mind), but they don't seem to be out of the ordinary for fighter jet development. As for allies, they keep ordering F-35s (or at least trying to) so it seems like they're at least fine with it.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > The U.S.'s allies aren't exactly thrilled with it. Since Russia invaded Ukraine and the European countries prioritized defense, the F-35 seems to win every competitive bid.
  - treis 2y ago
    Not any other realistic stealth options. China has the J-20 and Russia sort of has the SU-57 but that has seen limited production.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      So it's far better than anything anyone else has built.
      - treis 2y ago
        That doesn't mean anyone is thrilled with it.
mmooss 2y ago
> Hating the F-35 in general has been a thing for the Anti-American crowd mainly driven by western peaceniks I hadn't noticed that at all. Could you give some examples? What I've seen is budget hawks on all sides, meme-following mobs, competing defense contractors, and anyone politician looking for an easy target of 'corruption', etc. There are legitimate criticisms, including of the one-design-for-all concept, which we can see is not being repeated; sustainment issues, including maintenance; readiness; relevance in the era of missiles with longer range than F-35 fuel tanks, pushing bases and carriers out of range.
- ExoticPearTree 2y ago
  I personally don't like the F35 because I think it looks ugly. And I don't trust ugly planes. On the other hand, it they would have made it look as sleek and beautiful as the F22...
7thpower 2y ago
To be clear, it is hated by many pro-Americans and some of its other customers as well, primarily for its cost (over runs).

dundarious 2y ago

Criticism of the F-35 is not politically polarized -- critics exist on a broad political spectrum. "Western peaceniks" and "pro-Russia/China/etc" are a small subset.

relaxing 2y ago
There’s also the pro-Boeing crowd.
adrr 2y ago
Or that F-35 failed its goals. Double the price. 50% more expensive than estimated operational cost. Its 3x the price to operate than a F16. Planes are obsolete technologies, should have invested in drones/loitering munitions. In 10 years, its all going to be drones.
- SonicScrub 2y ago
  > Planes are obsolete technologies, should have invested in drones/loitering munitions. In 10 years, its all going to be drones. This is speculation on what the future will be, not our current reality. In the War in Ukraine, reliance on cheap drones has more to do neither sides ability to achieve air superiority due to AA systems. Introduce stealth and/or effective SEAD tactics (suppression of enemy air defense) into that mix, and the situation changes very quickly. For a recent example, see the Israeli strikes on Iranian air defense systems. The future is more likely to be hybrid, where drones, and "loyal wingman" data-linked with manned systems are used to get the best of both worlds. The F35's sensor suite and data-link capability are designed for that.
  - ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
    What is the use case for a manned missile taxi anyway? Does it have the agency to fire at will or does it need to confirm all attacks? Edit: i guess in high EW environments where you need fast delivery

feedforward 2y ago

Hey taxpayer! You don't like the estimated $1.5 trillion going to Lockheed Martin for their hunk of junk F35? Then you're just like Forbes, Bloomberg, the Washington Post and the other anti-American ChiComs who are saying all this because "they need it to be shit". Your rant is almost as inspiring as the Palantir CEO's flag waving speeches where he rants against the anti-America crowd who question why their tax dollars are flowing to his company.

WillPostForFood 2y ago
Your post is his point
- mmooss 2y ago
  How does the GP represent anti-Americans or peaceniks?

Teever 2y ago

Do you think that any criticism of the F-35 project is acceptable?

some_random 2y ago
Yeah absolutely, when it's based in actual fact. The F-35 project is a fantastic example of how out of control defense projects can become, it's parts sourcing in partner nations is questionable when those partner nations are liable to go procure S-400, parts commonality between A, B, and C is pretty terrible for three jets that are supposed to be variants, the list goes on.

cfcfcf 2y ago

It being dysfunctional is a convenient stick for this crowd to beat it with, but I wouldn't discount the issues. The U.S.'s allies aren't exactly thrilled with it.

some_random 2y ago
Is it dysfunctional though? There have been issues with it (landing gear and helmets come to mind), but they don't seem to be out of the ordinary for fighter jet development. As for allies, they keep ordering F-35s (or at least trying to) so it seems like they're at least fine with it.
mmooss 2y ago
> The U.S.'s allies aren't exactly thrilled with it. Since Russia invaded Ukraine and the European countries prioritized defense, the F-35 seems to win every competitive bid.
- treis 2y ago
  Not any other realistic stealth options. China has the J-20 and Russia sort of has the SU-57 but that has seen limited production.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    So it's far better than anything anyone else has built.
    - treis 2y ago
      That doesn't mean anyone is thrilled with it.

mmooss 2y ago

> Hating the F-35 in general has been a thing for the Anti-American crowd mainly driven by western peaceniks I hadn't noticed that at all. Could you give some examples? What I've seen is budget hawks on all sides, meme-following mobs, competing defense contractors, and anyone politician looking for an easy target of 'corruption', etc. There are legitimate criticisms, including of the one-design-for-all concept, which we can see is not being repeated; sustainment issues, including maintenance; readiness; relevance in the era of missiles with longer range than F-35 fuel tanks, pushing bases and carriers out of range.

ExoticPearTree 2y ago
I personally don't like the F35 because I think it looks ugly. And I don't trust ugly planes. On the other hand, it they would have made it look as sleek and beautiful as the F22...

7thpower 2y ago

To be clear, it is hated by many pro-Americans and some of its other customers as well, primarily for its cost (over runs).