9 ms·

Visualizing World War II

442 points by gaws 2y ago

jonpurdy 2y ago
I expected to spend a couple of minutes browsing this, yet 25 minutes later I'm not even halfway through. The best (so far) are the ones above the strings "on June 2nd, 1940" and "effort by Russian War Relief". I can't imagine the amount of research and sheer work (especially pre-internet) to create these. I was a kid who played SimCity 2000, RISK, and had tons of books about geography. Having physical pieces of paper that I'd spend minutes or hours analyzing was so satisfying. Scrolling around Google Earth or doing GIS-based analysis is also satisfying, but I really got a kick out of looking at this post (putting aside the seriousness of WW2).
- rkagerer 2y ago
  I never had interest in history when I was young, but developed an appetite for it lately. Learning how and why people reacted the way they did during times of growing political instability has helped me reconcile some of the trends I see in the world today (even if I don't like them), and lent insight toward forecasting how far the events of tomorrow might stray from my expected norms. To that end I found the series Turning Point: The Bomb And The Cold War a pretty riveting documentary exploring the journey from WWII to the present (especially the last few episodes).
ww2supercut 2y ago
I recently finished a large World War II project that covered the full timeline of the war, and Google Maps was a valuable tool to follow what was happening in any given battle. The problem is Google Maps has more detail than you need, so trying to follow something like Operation Market Garden is much more difficult than just looking at this beautiful battle map: https://www.alamy.com/a-bridge-too-far-image68088140.html https://www.alamy.com/a-bridge-too-far-image68088140.html. "The West Point Atlas of War" is another great resource. Maps cover the spatial side of war, but in addition it's difficult to follow the timeline. My project stitched popular World War II movies together into a chronological series, making it easier to see what was happening across the world at any given time. You can view the episodes and the full blog post here: https://open.substack.com/pub/ww2supercut/p/combining-143-world-war-ii-movies https://open.substack.com/pub/ww2supercut/p/combining-143-wo.... And in addition "The Second World War" by Churchill's biographer Martin Gilbert, is a chronological, 750 page book that I couldn't put down.
- ICameToComment 2y ago
  This should be a Hacker News frontpage posting all by itself. I'm deeply impressed.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    Seconded. This is awesome
    - ww2supercut 2y ago
      Thanks for the kind words!
- WesleyLivesay 2y ago
  Now I am wondering if there are any deep studies of "World War 2 movie scenes where they talk to a map" from movies. That scene from A Bridge Too Far is a great example of giving the audience some spatial understanding both quickly and using the scene for character building as well.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    8 seconds of Star Wars (ANH) was used to establish the time and space background for the "battle of Yavin": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yWrXPck6SI#t=20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yWrXPck6SI#t=20s and the rest of that scene plays out in the real time (15min) given during those eight seconds. In contrast, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEv999K5Lr0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEv999K5Lr0 , with a similar theme and screen time, is nowhere close to real time or distances. (although I guess Star Wars did have a strong advantage in being fictional)
    - buildsjets 2y ago
      Virtually the entire Battle of Yavin was directly copied from the old WWII movie “The Dambusters”. The dialog, the planning scenes, the special targeting device, the trench run, the sequence of battle, Lucas pretty much ganked it all. https://youtu.be/lNdb03Hw18M?si=LRuJEFmZEK5vGN_s https://youtu.be/lNdb03Hw18M?si=LRuJEFmZEK5vGN_s
MichaelZuo 2y ago
I’ve heard there were also great maps published in non-english newspapers during this time period.
- doodlebugging 2y ago
  I'm a map guy. I love maps and I regularly use online translations to help me understand what the map-maker or poster is trying to convey. With your post and all the opportunities open to you I feel like you advertised a grilled sausage event but when I showed up I discovered you were vegan and only serving salad. Where's the links?
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    I should have added that I haven’t physically seen these maps which may never have been digitized in the first place… so grilled sausage enthusiasts beware.
    - aziaziazi 2y ago
      I only eat plants but you woke my interest. Translator machine helped me to google “ Karte aus dem ersten Weltkrieg” and found this funny German map from 1014: https://www.vintage-maps.com/de/antike-landkarten/europa/europa-kontinent/anonymous-europa-kontinent-kriegspropaganda-1-weltkrieg::11513 https://www.vintage-maps.com/de/antike-landkarten/europa/eur...
WesleyLivesay 2y ago
Interesting article! The details on the maps are always interesting. The first map of 1939 shows the British blockade line of the North Sea that was so important during the First World War but would play a much lesser role in the Second, it probably would not even be present on most maps made after the war.
Yawrehto 2y ago
I have a 1944 World Almanac. It's incredibly detailed on World War Two - by my count, page 31 and 35-113 are mostly or totally devoted to it, in addition to the various bits on armies scattered throughout. Sometimes I look at it just to see what happened on that particular day (for instance: today, German forces landed in Leros, in the Aegean Sea, which was at the time held by the British, among many other events - and that just in 1943!) There are also some incredibly detailed war maps which I sometimes look at. At some point I should probably get around to uploading them, as they are absolutely amazing and I'd like to share it, but it's always near the bottom of my to-do list.
- Someone 2y ago
  Do you mean this: https://archive.org/details/worldalmanacbook0000unse_z4q3 https://archive.org/details/worldalmanacbook0000unse_z4q3? (Unfortunately only borrowable)
  - Archelaos 2y ago
    Here is a full version: https://archive.org/details/world-almanac-and-book-of-facts_1944 https://archive.org/details/world-almanac-and-book-of-facts_...
    - Yawrehto 2y ago
      I think both of those are correct, although they appear to be the paperback, as the hardcover has the front illustration on the inside and is otherwise plain. The electronic version does feel rather odd, though. It's much harder to open it to a random page and find something interesting (say, a list of refugee scholars who at the time had moved to the US, 561-63), which, for me at least, is the point. I could find the vast majority of the information, if not all of it, elsewhere with little effort, if I was so inclined. It's more in the discovery aspect of it (and the advertisements, which are often absolute gems, although less so than the 1909 edition, which included two awkwardly arranged vertical ads which had large text of 'Rupture' on the left and 'Your Lungs' on the right so it reads as 'Rupture Your Lungs', and also "Dr." Rupert Weils, who claimed to be able to cure cancer at home, using "radiatized fluid", which I think is radioactive water; by 1944 they were much less blatantly wrong or poorly arranged.)
MrMcCall 2y ago
My son and I are fans of Stephen E. Ambrose's books "D-Day" and "Citizen Soldiers" (as audiobooks), but would really love a video companion to the books that charts the territories being discussed. It would be like a subtitles file, but with map images and timing. I would love to endow Mr. Goldwag to undertake such an endeavor. His site demonstrates his love of maps as tools to help understand history. Fantastic!
TacticalCoder 2y ago
Some still haven't seen this picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Overlord#/media/File:NormandySupply_edit.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Overlord#/media/File... I don't think we can really comprehend how big an operation that was. A movie like "Saving Private Ryan" was incredibly good (especially the scene on the beach front) but didn't come anywhere close to show anything resembling that picture.
- the_af 2y ago
  Impressive photo. I imagine many more are even less familiar with the massive operations from the Eastern Front, simultaneously more important and lesser known in the West (at least in pop culture; historians of course know them). E.g. Operation Bagration.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    Overlord overshadows other operations because it was unique in its nature, scale and difficulties. Eastern Front also had its iconic moments like Battle of Stalingrad or Siege of Leningrad...
    - the_af 2y ago
      > Overlord overshadows other operations because it was unique in its nature, scale and difficulties Without diminishing Overlord (a landing of this magnitude was unparalleled), I think Bagration is just as impressive, devastatingly effective at annihilating the German army (most of Army Group Center gone, poof), and must have been a logistical and secrecy nightmare to employ maskirovka at such a large scale. It was larger scale than Overlord, too. Not many in pop culture know about the Siege of Leningrad. Stalingrad is better known in pop culture, but regrettably most of it at the level of terribly bad and misleading movies such as "Enemy at the Gates". > Eastern Front also had its iconic moments [...] That's a bit of an understatement... The Eastern Front is where most of the fighting in WWII happened. It's where the European theater of war was truly won or lost.
      - 2y ago
arethuza 2y ago
Also worth thinking about the plans that were in place by the Nazis but never fully implemented due to the defeat by the Allies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
lsy 2y ago
It's wild to compare these maps with what is being published today in the New York Times about the war in Ukraine: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/world/europe/ukraine-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/world/europe/ukrain... The modern maps, while technically more "accurate" than hand-drawn diagrams, are almost shockingly light on information in comparison, and the accompanying text is a linear recounting of various advances and retreats with only passing explanation of the strategic importance of either. I think there are two effects at play here: one is the decrease in expectation of the readership to have much comprehension or critical thinking facility, which is counterintuitive given supposed strides in education over the last eighty years. The second is the gutting of the news media as an industry where career professionals could get and keep lifetime experience in understanding important events and their place in history. While no doubt reporters today are doing their best, the news media is increasingly reliant on contract work and fresh grist for the mill, and it seems obvious that the writers at the NYT have just not been given the resources or motivation to become as familiar with the contours of the conflict as the writers of the past.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ThrowawayR2 2y ago
  Or maybe it's because they're busy fighting a war and trying not to die so that they haven't had the time to provide records for the historians and analysts to ruminate over.
- stonesthrowaway 2y ago
  > The modern maps, while technically more "accurate" than hand-drawn diagrams, are almost shockingly light on information in comparison, and the accompanying text is a linear recounting of various advances and retreats with only passing explanation of the strategic importance of either. Feels like both are light on information. But what do you expect? It's war time propaganda. It isn't meant to educate or inform. The news during war is not the same as it is during peacetime. They serve different goals. Whether it's ukraine. Gaza. Or ww2. > one is the decrease in expectation of the readership to have much comprehension or critical thinking facility, which is counterintuitive given supposed strides in education over the last eighty years. Mass education was never meant to increase critical thinking. Mass education exists to brainwash and instill conformity. The modern education system was created by the prussians in the 1800s to "educate" the peoples of the various germanic states into one single nation. It's the same education system adopted by the US and much of the world. > and it seems obvious that the writers at the NYT have just not been given the resources or motivation to become as familiar with the contours of the conflict as the writers of the past. Because NYT reporters were so familiar with the contours of iraq and their wmd program? If someone gave the NYT a trillion dollars, what would change? Nothing. The reporting would be the same. Especially when it comes to wars. When you read war propaganda from the past ( pick any war ) or in any country, it's remarkable how similar they all are.
cf100clunk 2y ago
Excellent historical resource. Also the ''Atlas Of World War II'' is quite good: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_World_War_II https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_World_War_II and there is this hard cover ''Atlas of World War II'': https://www.amazon.com/Atlas-World-War-II-Cartography/dp/1426219717 https://www.amazon.com/Atlas-World-War-II-Cartography/dp/142...
- panick21_ 2y ago
  I would add to this: "A History of the Second World War in 100 Maps" See: A History of the Second World War in 100 Maps
hnpolicestate 2y ago
The more I philosophize on the subject. The reason Western boomers had it so very good is due to them being born mere moments after a cataclysmic, violent human struggle that killed nearly 80 million people ended.
- knowaveragejoe 2y ago
  In many ways it shaped the modern world. We are still riding the waves in the wake of all that happened in just a few short years in the early/mid 20th century.
warrentr 2y ago
The winds of war and war and remembrance books (or audio books) are a pretty good way to get a feel for ww2. They're historically accurate fiction and offer a lot of long-form detail and context (at least from the US/allies side of things)
- BubbleRings 2y ago
  If you really want to have a solid overview understanding of World War 2, and you are just not the type to read two long books no matter how good they are, then here is probably your best option by far: 1. Pay for an Audible account. (Or figure out how to get free access to audio books from your local library.) 2. Listen to the books “Winds of War” and then “War and Remembrance” by Herman Wouk. The drama and characterizations are just fine, and will pull you right in to caring for Pug Henry and wanting to know what happens to him and his family. The battle scenes are true history and will blow you away, and teach you a lot. Midway, incredible. The coverage of the Holocaust will break your heart, but make you think, “wow, everybody in the world should read this once”. The character evolution of Werner Beck, in light of today’s world events, might terrify you. Whole nations don’t all of the sudden become evil. Evil powerful leaders push evil down into a country over time.
- themadturk 2y ago
  The books are excellent, but the two miniseries made from the books are also worth watching. Wouk's strength is not only in portraying the sweep of events in both Europe and Asia before and during the war, but humanizing it with characters who, while they do seem to show up everywhere important, suffer real loss and hardship while doing so.
stared 2y ago
For WW2 visualizations, The Fallen of World War II (http://www.fallen.io/ww2/ http://www.fallen.io/ww2/) is a masterpiece—well-researched, clearly visualized, and paired with excellent narration. It balances nuance with the big picture, and even though it addresses tens of millions of deaths, it reminds us that these are people, not mere statistics.
bane 2y ago
Something I've come to really appreciate about WWII, is how much effort was put into either creating or implementing concepts about organization and efficiency into action. WWII was likely the largest organizational endeavor in human history. There's an almost paradoxical immensity to it, where humans, using paper, typewriters, physical mail, and early electric (not electronic) communication systems had to organize millions of humans into large coordinated efforts over about half the surface of a planet. They did it without the aid of computers and the unlimited up-to-date firehoses of data that we have today. The paradox is that it's not entirely clear that our modern civilization, using these advantages, would be able to do what they did. Modern technologies seem to create an effect of overanalysis, where the WW2 generation often worked in deeply ambiguous grey areas. Our tendency today is to want to produce as much up to date information as possible, even if its not necessary to the overall goal. We want to use a computer to scrub deeply through immense data to produce marginal gains. A Strategic General in WW2 might want to move 100,000 men and arms to a different location and issue the order where it would be relayed by post, telephone, or telegraph. To find out if that order was fulfilled might take weeks or months to even find out. Today we would want to track each soldier's boots to watch them march across a digital map in real-time. Yet it worked. With major operations occurring down to the minute that involved multinational organizations moving millions of tons of human lives, arms, supply, and equipment, all also built to fulfill that order, on time and at high quality.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  They didn't have computers, but they did have card machines. https://www.ww2online.org/image/large-replica-punch-cards-bureau-supplies-and-accounts-uses-help-manage-complex-tasks-it https://www.ww2online.org/image/large-replica-punch-cards-bu... https://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/405.html https://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/405.html https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102645467 https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/10264546... dieselpunk ftw
- cgh 2y ago
  Hard to upvote this comment enough. D-Day alone was staggeringly immense, the largest naval, air and land operation in history, likely never to be matched. And the entire thing was basically planned and executed with pen and paper.
AcerbicZero 2y ago
Those are some impressive maps, with tons of foreshadowing, barely 9 days into the conflict.
- B1FF_PSUVM 2y ago
  There was a 1937 one worrying about the partition of the US: https://imgur.com/O4tp7JB https://imgur.com/O4tp7JB
hyggetrold 2y ago
This is awesome. Cool to see the history told this way. I would also encourage folks to seek out photos/footage of the concentration camps in Europe as well as the aftermath of the atomic bombings in Japan. When you see the unsanitized horror it really gives you pause that people did this to each other. And why war is worth trying to prevent.
sorokod 2y ago
Looking at the first map, the line between Paris and Berlin goes straight through Ardennes where Army Group A broke the French line in May 1940.
aenopix 2y ago
I see Palestine in one of those maps (never israel). It was always Palestine
- themadturk 2y ago
  Well, Israel didn't exist until after the war, so no one would have shown it in maps of WW2.

442 points by gaws 2y ago

I expected to spend a couple of minutes browsing this, yet 25 minutes later I'm not even halfway through. The best (so far) are the ones above the strings "on June 2nd, 1940" and "effort by Russian War Relief". I can't imagine the amount of research and sheer work (especially pre-internet) to create these. I was a kid who played SimCity 2000, RISK, and had tons of books about geography. Having physical pieces of paper that I'd spend minutes or hours analyzing was so satisfying. Scrolling around Google Earth or doing GIS-based analysis is also satisfying, but I really got a kick out of looking at this post (putting aside the seriousness of WW2).

rkagerer 2y ago
I never had interest in history when I was young, but developed an appetite for it lately. Learning how and why people reacted the way they did during times of growing political instability has helped me reconcile some of the trends I see in the world today (even if I don't like them), and lent insight toward forecasting how far the events of tomorrow might stray from my expected norms. To that end I found the series Turning Point: The Bomb And The Cold War a pretty riveting documentary exploring the journey from WWII to the present (especially the last few episodes).

ww2supercut 2y ago

I recently finished a large World War II project that covered the full timeline of the war, and Google Maps was a valuable tool to follow what was happening in any given battle. The problem is Google Maps has more detail than you need, so trying to follow something like Operation Market Garden is much more difficult than just looking at this beautiful battle map: https://www.alamy.com/a-bridge-too-far-image68088140.html https://www.alamy.com/a-bridge-too-far-image68088140.html. "The West Point Atlas of War" is another great resource. Maps cover the spatial side of war, but in addition it's difficult to follow the timeline. My project stitched popular World War II movies together into a chronological series, making it easier to see what was happening across the world at any given time. You can view the episodes and the full blog post here: https://open.substack.com/pub/ww2supercut/p/combining-143-world-war-ii-movies https://open.substack.com/pub/ww2supercut/p/combining-143-wo.... And in addition "The Second World War" by Churchill's biographer Martin Gilbert, is a chronological, 750 page book that I couldn't put down.

ICameToComment 2y ago
This should be a Hacker News frontpage posting all by itself. I'm deeply impressed.
- FredPret 2y ago
  Seconded. This is awesome
  - ww2supercut 2y ago
    Thanks for the kind words!
WesleyLivesay 2y ago
Now I am wondering if there are any deep studies of "World War 2 movie scenes where they talk to a map" from movies. That scene from A Bridge Too Far is a great example of giving the audience some spatial understanding both quickly and using the scene for character building as well.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  8 seconds of Star Wars (ANH) was used to establish the time and space background for the "battle of Yavin": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yWrXPck6SI#t=20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yWrXPck6SI#t=20s and the rest of that scene plays out in the real time (15min) given during those eight seconds. In contrast, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEv999K5Lr0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEv999K5Lr0 , with a similar theme and screen time, is nowhere close to real time or distances. (although I guess Star Wars did have a strong advantage in being fictional)
  - buildsjets 2y ago
    Virtually the entire Battle of Yavin was directly copied from the old WWII movie “The Dambusters”. The dialog, the planning scenes, the special targeting device, the trench run, the sequence of battle, Lucas pretty much ganked it all. https://youtu.be/lNdb03Hw18M?si=LRuJEFmZEK5vGN_s https://youtu.be/lNdb03Hw18M?si=LRuJEFmZEK5vGN_s

MichaelZuo 2y ago

I’ve heard there were also great maps published in non-english newspapers during this time period.

doodlebugging 2y ago
I'm a map guy. I love maps and I regularly use online translations to help me understand what the map-maker or poster is trying to convey. With your post and all the opportunities open to you I feel like you advertised a grilled sausage event but when I showed up I discovered you were vegan and only serving salad. Where's the links?
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  I should have added that I haven’t physically seen these maps which may never have been digitized in the first place… so grilled sausage enthusiasts beware.
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    I only eat plants but you woke my interest. Translator machine helped me to google “ Karte aus dem ersten Weltkrieg” and found this funny German map from 1014: https://www.vintage-maps.com/de/antike-landkarten/europa/europa-kontinent/anonymous-europa-kontinent-kriegspropaganda-1-weltkrieg::11513 https://www.vintage-maps.com/de/antike-landkarten/europa/eur...

WesleyLivesay 2y ago

Interesting article! The details on the maps are always interesting. The first map of 1939 shows the British blockade line of the North Sea that was so important during the First World War but would play a much lesser role in the Second, it probably would not even be present on most maps made after the war.

Yawrehto 2y ago

I have a 1944 World Almanac. It's incredibly detailed on World War Two - by my count, page 31 and 35-113 are mostly or totally devoted to it, in addition to the various bits on armies scattered throughout. Sometimes I look at it just to see what happened on that particular day (for instance: today, German forces landed in Leros, in the Aegean Sea, which was at the time held by the British, among many other events - and that just in 1943!) There are also some incredibly detailed war maps which I sometimes look at. At some point I should probably get around to uploading them, as they are absolutely amazing and I'd like to share it, but it's always near the bottom of my to-do list.

Someone 2y ago
Do you mean this: https://archive.org/details/worldalmanacbook0000unse_z4q3 https://archive.org/details/worldalmanacbook0000unse_z4q3? (Unfortunately only borrowable)
- Archelaos 2y ago
  Here is a full version: https://archive.org/details/world-almanac-and-book-of-facts_1944 https://archive.org/details/world-almanac-and-book-of-facts_...
  - Yawrehto 2y ago
    I think both of those are correct, although they appear to be the paperback, as the hardcover has the front illustration on the inside and is otherwise plain. The electronic version does feel rather odd, though. It's much harder to open it to a random page and find something interesting (say, a list of refugee scholars who at the time had moved to the US, 561-63), which, for me at least, is the point. I could find the vast majority of the information, if not all of it, elsewhere with little effort, if I was so inclined. It's more in the discovery aspect of it (and the advertisements, which are often absolute gems, although less so than the 1909 edition, which included two awkwardly arranged vertical ads which had large text of 'Rupture' on the left and 'Your Lungs' on the right so it reads as 'Rupture Your Lungs', and also "Dr." Rupert Weils, who claimed to be able to cure cancer at home, using "radiatized fluid", which I think is radioactive water; by 1944 they were much less blatantly wrong or poorly arranged.)

MrMcCall 2y ago

My son and I are fans of Stephen E. Ambrose's books "D-Day" and "Citizen Soldiers" (as audiobooks), but would really love a video companion to the books that charts the territories being discussed. It would be like a subtitles file, but with map images and timing. I would love to endow Mr. Goldwag to undertake such an endeavor. His site demonstrates his love of maps as tools to help understand history. Fantastic!

TacticalCoder 2y ago

Some still haven't seen this picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Overlord#/media/File:NormandySupply_edit.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Overlord#/media/File... I don't think we can really comprehend how big an operation that was. A movie like "Saving Private Ryan" was incredibly good (especially the scene on the beach front) but didn't come anywhere close to show anything resembling that picture.

the_af 2y ago
Impressive photo. I imagine many more are even less familiar with the massive operations from the Eastern Front, simultaneously more important and lesser known in the West (at least in pop culture; historians of course know them). E.g. Operation Bagration.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  Overlord overshadows other operations because it was unique in its nature, scale and difficulties. Eastern Front also had its iconic moments like Battle of Stalingrad or Siege of Leningrad...
  - the_af 2y ago
    > Overlord overshadows other operations because it was unique in its nature, scale and difficulties Without diminishing Overlord (a landing of this magnitude was unparalleled), I think Bagration is just as impressive, devastatingly effective at annihilating the German army (most of Army Group Center gone, poof), and must have been a logistical and secrecy nightmare to employ maskirovka at such a large scale. It was larger scale than Overlord, too. Not many in pop culture know about the Siege of Leningrad. Stalingrad is better known in pop culture, but regrettably most of it at the level of terribly bad and misleading movies such as "Enemy at the Gates". > Eastern Front also had its iconic moments [...] That's a bit of an understatement... The Eastern Front is where most of the fighting in WWII happened. It's where the European theater of war was truly won or lost.
    - 2y ago

arethuza 2y ago

Also worth thinking about the plans that were in place by the Nazis but never fully implemented due to the defeat by the Allies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

lsy 2y ago

It's wild to compare these maps with what is being published today in the New York Times about the war in Ukraine: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/world/europe/ukraine-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/world/europe/ukrain... The modern maps, while technically more "accurate" than hand-drawn diagrams, are almost shockingly light on information in comparison, and the accompanying text is a linear recounting of various advances and retreats with only passing explanation of the strategic importance of either. I think there are two effects at play here: one is the decrease in expectation of the readership to have much comprehension or critical thinking facility, which is counterintuitive given supposed strides in education over the last eighty years. The second is the gutting of the news media as an industry where career professionals could get and keep lifetime experience in understanding important events and their place in history. While no doubt reporters today are doing their best, the news media is increasingly reliant on contract work and fresh grist for the mill, and it seems obvious that the writers at the NYT have just not been given the resources or motivation to become as familiar with the contours of the conflict as the writers of the past.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ThrowawayR2 2y ago
Or maybe it's because they're busy fighting a war and trying not to die so that they haven't had the time to provide records for the historians and analysts to ruminate over.
stonesthrowaway 2y ago
> The modern maps, while technically more "accurate" than hand-drawn diagrams, are almost shockingly light on information in comparison, and the accompanying text is a linear recounting of various advances and retreats with only passing explanation of the strategic importance of either. Feels like both are light on information. But what do you expect? It's war time propaganda. It isn't meant to educate or inform. The news during war is not the same as it is during peacetime. They serve different goals. Whether it's ukraine. Gaza. Or ww2. > one is the decrease in expectation of the readership to have much comprehension or critical thinking facility, which is counterintuitive given supposed strides in education over the last eighty years. Mass education was never meant to increase critical thinking. Mass education exists to brainwash and instill conformity. The modern education system was created by the prussians in the 1800s to "educate" the peoples of the various germanic states into one single nation. It's the same education system adopted by the US and much of the world. > and it seems obvious that the writers at the NYT have just not been given the resources or motivation to become as familiar with the contours of the conflict as the writers of the past. Because NYT reporters were so familiar with the contours of iraq and their wmd program? If someone gave the NYT a trillion dollars, what would change? Nothing. The reporting would be the same. Especially when it comes to wars. When you read war propaganda from the past ( pick any war ) or in any country, it's remarkable how similar they all are.

cf100clunk 2y ago

Excellent historical resource. Also the ''Atlas Of World War II'' is quite good: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_World_War_II https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_World_War_II and there is this hard cover ''Atlas of World War II'': https://www.amazon.com/Atlas-World-War-II-Cartography/dp/1426219717 https://www.amazon.com/Atlas-World-War-II-Cartography/dp/142...

panick21_ 2y ago
I would add to this: "A History of the Second World War in 100 Maps" See: A History of the Second World War in 100 Maps

hnpolicestate 2y ago

The more I philosophize on the subject. The reason Western boomers had it so very good is due to them being born mere moments after a cataclysmic, violent human struggle that killed nearly 80 million people ended.

knowaveragejoe 2y ago
In many ways it shaped the modern world. We are still riding the waves in the wake of all that happened in just a few short years in the early/mid 20th century.

warrentr 2y ago

The winds of war and war and remembrance books (or audio books) are a pretty good way to get a feel for ww2. They're historically accurate fiction and offer a lot of long-form detail and context (at least from the US/allies side of things)

BubbleRings 2y ago
If you really want to have a solid overview understanding of World War 2, and you are just not the type to read two long books no matter how good they are, then here is probably your best option by far: 1. Pay for an Audible account. (Or figure out how to get free access to audio books from your local library.) 2. Listen to the books “Winds of War” and then “War and Remembrance” by Herman Wouk. The drama and characterizations are just fine, and will pull you right in to caring for Pug Henry and wanting to know what happens to him and his family. The battle scenes are true history and will blow you away, and teach you a lot. Midway, incredible. The coverage of the Holocaust will break your heart, but make you think, “wow, everybody in the world should read this once”. The character evolution of Werner Beck, in light of today’s world events, might terrify you. Whole nations don’t all of the sudden become evil. Evil powerful leaders push evil down into a country over time.
themadturk 2y ago
The books are excellent, but the two miniseries made from the books are also worth watching. Wouk's strength is not only in portraying the sweep of events in both Europe and Asia before and during the war, but humanizing it with characters who, while they do seem to show up everywhere important, suffer real loss and hardship while doing so.

stared 2y ago

For WW2 visualizations, The Fallen of World War II (http://www.fallen.io/ww2/ http://www.fallen.io/ww2/) is a masterpiece—well-researched, clearly visualized, and paired with excellent narration. It balances nuance with the big picture, and even though it addresses tens of millions of deaths, it reminds us that these are people, not mere statistics.

bane 2y ago

Something I've come to really appreciate about WWII, is how much effort was put into either creating or implementing concepts about organization and efficiency into action. WWII was likely the largest organizational endeavor in human history. There's an almost paradoxical immensity to it, where humans, using paper, typewriters, physical mail, and early electric (not electronic) communication systems had to organize millions of humans into large coordinated efforts over about half the surface of a planet. They did it without the aid of computers and the unlimited up-to-date firehoses of data that we have today. The paradox is that it's not entirely clear that our modern civilization, using these advantages, would be able to do what they did. Modern technologies seem to create an effect of overanalysis, where the WW2 generation often worked in deeply ambiguous grey areas. Our tendency today is to want to produce as much up to date information as possible, even if its not necessary to the overall goal. We want to use a computer to scrub deeply through immense data to produce marginal gains. A Strategic General in WW2 might want to move 100,000 men and arms to a different location and issue the order where it would be relayed by post, telephone, or telegraph. To find out if that order was fulfilled might take weeks or months to even find out. Today we would want to track each soldier's boots to watch them march across a digital map in real-time. Yet it worked. With major operations occurring down to the minute that involved multinational organizations moving millions of tons of human lives, arms, supply, and equipment, all also built to fulfill that order, on time and at high quality.

082349872349872 2y ago
They didn't have computers, but they did have card machines. https://www.ww2online.org/image/large-replica-punch-cards-bureau-supplies-and-accounts-uses-help-manage-complex-tasks-it https://www.ww2online.org/image/large-replica-punch-cards-bu... https://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/405.html https://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/405.html https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102645467 https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/10264546... dieselpunk ftw
cgh 2y ago
Hard to upvote this comment enough. D-Day alone was staggeringly immense, the largest naval, air and land operation in history, likely never to be matched. And the entire thing was basically planned and executed with pen and paper.

AcerbicZero 2y ago

Those are some impressive maps, with tons of foreshadowing, barely 9 days into the conflict.

B1FF_PSUVM 2y ago
There was a 1937 one worrying about the partition of the US: https://imgur.com/O4tp7JB https://imgur.com/O4tp7JB

hyggetrold 2y ago

This is awesome. Cool to see the history told this way. I would also encourage folks to seek out photos/footage of the concentration camps in Europe as well as the aftermath of the atomic bombings in Japan. When you see the unsanitized horror it really gives you pause that people did this to each other. And why war is worth trying to prevent.

sorokod 2y ago

Looking at the first map, the line between Paris and Berlin goes straight through Ardennes where Army Group A broke the French line in May 1940.

aenopix 2y ago

I see Palestine in one of those maps (never israel). It was always Palestine

themadturk 2y ago
Well, Israel didn't exist until after the war, so no one would have shown it in maps of WW2.