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I read somewhere that cephalopods are kind of like "individual flashes of genius". They develop large brains very rapidly, with lots of skills, BUT they don't

by chubot 2y ago

I read somewhere that cephalopods are kind of like "individual flashes of genius". They develop large brains very rapidly, with lots of skills, BUT they don't pass on their skills, in part because they die quickly! This article mentions that: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/opinion/sunday/octopuses-and-the-puzzle-of-aging.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/opinion/sunday/octopuses-... Despite being mollusks, like clams and oysters, these animals have very large brains and exhibit a curious, enigmatic intelligence. I followed them through the sea, and also began reading about them, and one of the first things I learned came as a shock: They have extremely short lives — just one or two years. Other discussion - https://tonmo.com/threads/why-dont-octopus-and-other-cephlapods-live-very-long.14053/ https://tonmo.com/threads/why-dont-octopus-and-other-cephlap... --- Humans do seem to have some the longest life spans on the planet, and that's an important adaptation -- "grandmother hypothesis" and all that. I can see that generational knowledge is big deal, even in my own family, and in my coworkers' families. Or you can look at the family of (ironically) Charles Darwin, with Francis Galton, and so forth The outliers among primates move the civilization forward. So just having a few people with big brains, who absorb knowledge from their predecessors, is a big deal. Though of course there could be some cephalopod species that evolved to live 100 years ... and then for some reason they disappeared, or lost that adaptation

ddalex 2y ago
> for some reason they disappeared Octopodi be tasty.
stevenwoo 2y ago
Not only short lifespan (some live four years), but all species die after laying eggs or after the eggs hatch so there can only be genetic transfer of information like the social insects, ants and termites. There would need to be some evolutionary leap to have them survive longer than required now or extraordinary genetic engineering ala Children of Time.
- andrewflnr 2y ago
  Not necessarily. You could, in principle, have the information transfer happen via octopuses in their community that aren't laying eggs yet.
  - stevenwoo 2y ago
    That could be true. But all of the ones I've seen in nature documentaries lay their eggs at approximately the same time which probably were the most interesting to document for laypeople not representative of all these. The four years number popped in my head from this one example, where she tended her eggs for four years but lives about seven years total. Given the length of brooding I would assume these do NOT lay their eggs at the same time like some sort of cicada multiple years cycle. The counter argument is these are solitary animals, so we would need to find a social version of these that do not lay their eggs at the same time, I'd like to see that in the next nature documentary! https://www.mbari.org/news/deep-sea-octopus-broods-eggs-for-over-four-years-longer-than-any-known-animal/ https://www.mbari.org/news/deep-sea-octopus-broods-eggs-for-...
    - andrewflnr 2y ago
      Yeah, evolving social behavior is a prereq. We're doing speculative biology, not real biology. :) The idea might be, if they lay eggs at 3 years old, then the 2 year olds do the teaching. But by the time they can do that, I bet it's not that hard to lose the brood-until-you-die behavior either.
    - yencabulator 2y ago
      Even if there was an "egg-laying season", there could be a generation in-between that is not yet ready to lay eggs, that then teaches the newborns. Staggered lives, minimal overlap with direct parent, but still passing cultural heritage as a village.
Terr_ 2y ago
> Humans do seem to have some the longest life spans on the planet, and that's an important adaptation Most of that is just using medicine and tools, as opposed to any purely biological longevity factor.
- chubot 2y ago
  Medicine increased the average life span, but I don't think it increased the maximum very much A lot of figures you see are biased by infant mortality and such Random article I googled - Did Ancient People Die Young? https://www.sapiens.org/biology/human-lifespan-history/ https://www.sapiens.org/biology/human-lifespan-history/ The outliers are the ones who drive history - I am imagining an 80-year-old wise man or woman, 10,000 years ago, who changed history We still don't know how language came about, and how writing came about, and I can imagine that a limited life span / reproductive goals would make those things less likely
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    The severity of wounds was very different even just a hundred years ago. It was dramatically different more than some 5000 years ago. These days mortality is heavily based on infant mortality, but 10,000 years back the statistics might be a bit different. I'm sure infant mortality was still a significant factor, but I'd also expect modern medicine elevated its significance a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wound_care https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wound_care
    - chubot 2y ago
      Sure, but that changes the average too, not the maximum When I say maximum, I mean that presumably 10,000 years ago, there were people who didn't get sick, didn't get wounded, etc. They died of "old age" How long did they live? There were far fewer of them, but they existed, and were probably productive, passed on knowledge, and moved civilization forward. They could have been leaders, or raised leaders, etc.

by chubot 2y ago

ddalex 2y ago

> for some reason they disappeared Octopodi be tasty.

stevenwoo 2y ago

Not only short lifespan (some live four years), but all species die after laying eggs or after the eggs hatch so there can only be genetic transfer of information like the social insects, ants and termites. There would need to be some evolutionary leap to have them survive longer than required now or extraordinary genetic engineering ala Children of Time.

andrewflnr 2y ago
Not necessarily. You could, in principle, have the information transfer happen via octopuses in their community that aren't laying eggs yet.
- stevenwoo 2y ago
  That could be true. But all of the ones I've seen in nature documentaries lay their eggs at approximately the same time which probably were the most interesting to document for laypeople not representative of all these. The four years number popped in my head from this one example, where she tended her eggs for four years but lives about seven years total. Given the length of brooding I would assume these do NOT lay their eggs at the same time like some sort of cicada multiple years cycle. The counter argument is these are solitary animals, so we would need to find a social version of these that do not lay their eggs at the same time, I'd like to see that in the next nature documentary! https://www.mbari.org/news/deep-sea-octopus-broods-eggs-for-over-four-years-longer-than-any-known-animal/ https://www.mbari.org/news/deep-sea-octopus-broods-eggs-for-...
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    Yeah, evolving social behavior is a prereq. We're doing speculative biology, not real biology. :) The idea might be, if they lay eggs at 3 years old, then the 2 year olds do the teaching. But by the time they can do that, I bet it's not that hard to lose the brood-until-you-die behavior either.
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    Even if there was an "egg-laying season", there could be a generation in-between that is not yet ready to lay eggs, that then teaches the newborns. Staggered lives, minimal overlap with direct parent, but still passing cultural heritage as a village.

Terr_ 2y ago

> Humans do seem to have some the longest life spans on the planet, and that's an important adaptation Most of that is just using medicine and tools, as opposed to any purely biological longevity factor.

chubot 2y ago
Medicine increased the average life span, but I don't think it increased the maximum very much A lot of figures you see are biased by infant mortality and such Random article I googled - Did Ancient People Die Young? https://www.sapiens.org/biology/human-lifespan-history/ https://www.sapiens.org/biology/human-lifespan-history/ The outliers are the ones who drive history - I am imagining an 80-year-old wise man or woman, 10,000 years ago, who changed history We still don't know how language came about, and how writing came about, and I can imagine that a limited life span / reproductive goals would make those things less likely
- yencabulator 2y ago
  The severity of wounds was very different even just a hundred years ago. It was dramatically different more than some 5000 years ago. These days mortality is heavily based on infant mortality, but 10,000 years back the statistics might be a bit different. I'm sure infant mortality was still a significant factor, but I'd also expect modern medicine elevated its significance a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wound_care https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wound_care
  - chubot 2y ago
    Sure, but that changes the average too, not the maximum When I say maximum, I mean that presumably 10,000 years ago, there were people who didn't get sick, didn't get wounded, etc. They died of "old age" How long did they live? There were far fewer of them, but they existed, and were probably productive, passed on knowledge, and moved civilization forward. They could have been leaders, or raised leaders, etc.