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There is discussion in the article about cephalopod communication, and how they use complex patterning and physical movement to communicate with each other. Is

There is discussion in the article about cephalopod communication, and how they use complex patterning and physical movement to communicate with each other. Is their level of communication and their information transfer speed as high as language? I don't think we can know very well without asking a cephalopod. Now, that whole section is talking about modern cuttlefish, so I would agree with you regarding the author's hypothetical nautilus civilization.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
> s their level of communication and their information transfer speed as high as language? First, spoken language isn't extraordinarily fast. Most of us here have experienced points in our lives where speech has seemed laboriously slow. Second, we have through much of recorded history, relied upon correspondence and the written word, where communicating a few sentences worth of ideas took weeks. It is not outlandish to think that complicated, colorful shapes on the cuttlefish's back (pictures in the link, if you need a reminder) could convey an entire sentence' worth of information. With a refresh rate of what, 5 seconds? More than enough for human-speech-level speed. Whatever other challenges they face, communication just isn't one of those.
- deleted 2y ago
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bumby 2y ago
I guess the part that I could’ve been more explicit about is that I am thinking both complex language and complex language skills being necessary together to push civilization forward. The takeaway I had from the articles communication discussion was that their communication, while unique, is focused directly on mating, and predation (or avoiding predation). Those goals seem to be the norm in the animal kingdom. While I think the argument could be made that the human demonstrations can be to the same ends, they are many more layers of abstraction in between which is what ends up creating complex civilization. (Eg, status is a form of mating, but we humans have so many tangential levels of displaying status that technology like a Lamborghini can become a mating signal, rather than using pure dominance. The combination of complex social behaviors and communication are necessary before the technology develops)
- inkcapmushroom 2y ago
  I think we can very easily tell when they are communicating about mating or predation. We can read those signals in virtually any animal, there seem to be near-universal signals which we can easily talk about in research. Maybe when they are just having a chat, it might not look like anything to us, and we can only really tell what they're saying when they're "shouting". Or maybe we are missing lots of nuanced details being conveyed in the message. We think the tiger stripe aggressive pattern just means "back off", but maybe he's really "reading off" a detailed list of his feats of bravery to intimidate his opponent or spitting the cephalopod equivalent of a diss track!
yencabulator 2y ago
Consider deaf/mute humans. Are you saying they can't communicate at speeds matching speech?

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago

> s their level of communication and their information transfer speed as high as language? First, spoken language isn't extraordinarily fast. Most of us here have experienced points in our lives where speech has seemed laboriously slow. Second, we have through much of recorded history, relied upon correspondence and the written word, where communicating a few sentences worth of ideas took weeks. It is not outlandish to think that complicated, colorful shapes on the cuttlefish's back (pictures in the link, if you need a reminder) could convey an entire sentence' worth of information. With a refresh rate of what, 5 seconds? More than enough for human-speech-level speed. Whatever other challenges they face, communication just isn't one of those.

deleted 2y ago
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bumby 2y ago

I guess the part that I could’ve been more explicit about is that I am thinking both complex language and complex language skills being necessary together to push civilization forward. The takeaway I had from the articles communication discussion was that their communication, while unique, is focused directly on mating, and predation (or avoiding predation). Those goals seem to be the norm in the animal kingdom. While I think the argument could be made that the human demonstrations can be to the same ends, they are many more layers of abstraction in between which is what ends up creating complex civilization. (Eg, status is a form of mating, but we humans have so many tangential levels of displaying status that technology like a Lamborghini can become a mating signal, rather than using pure dominance. The combination of complex social behaviors and communication are necessary before the technology develops)

inkcapmushroom 2y ago
I think we can very easily tell when they are communicating about mating or predation. We can read those signals in virtually any animal, there seem to be near-universal signals which we can easily talk about in research. Maybe when they are just having a chat, it might not look like anything to us, and we can only really tell what they're saying when they're "shouting". Or maybe we are missing lots of nuanced details being conveyed in the message. We think the tiger stripe aggressive pattern just means "back off", but maybe he's really "reading off" a detailed list of his feats of bravery to intimidate his opponent or spitting the cephalopod equivalent of a diss track!

yencabulator 2y ago

Consider deaf/mute humans. Are you saying they can't communicate at speeds matching speech?