5 ms·

>The employment law is exemplary good. Taht's not true at all. Employers can lay off workers for no reason at all at any time without paying any severance (unl

>The employment law is exemplary good. Taht's not true at all. Employers can lay off workers for no reason at all at any time without paying any severance (unless you have a unio that can negotiate a better deal). Just hand them the notice and you're done.

whilenot-dev 2y ago
The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months on unlimited contracts - limited contacts can't be terminated unilateral. And, depending on social situation, you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer[0] without any costs. [0]: https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendigung/Arbeitgeber-Kuendigung.html https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendi...
- jahnu 2y ago
  Right there are some restrictions but people seem to have the weird idea that you can't get fired without cause or redundancy. If the employer does it correctly they can essentially get rid of anyone, those restrictions notwithstanding.
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    You can get fired immediately without cause, but that's against the law, and the law is pretty clear on lawful causes: § 27. Als ein wichtiger Grund, der den Dienstgeber zur vorzeitigen Entlassung berechtigt, ist insbesondere anzusehen: 1. Wenn der Angestellte im Dienste untreu ist, sich in seiner Tätigkeit ohne Wissen oder Willen des Dienstgebers von dritten Personen unberechtigte Vorteile zuwenden läßt, insbesondere entgegen der Bestimmung des § 13 eine Provision oder eine sonstige Belohnung annimmt, oder wenn er sich einer Handlung schuldig macht, die ihn des Vertrauens des Dienstgebers unwürdig erscheinen läßt; 2. wenn der Angestellte unfähig ist, die versprochenen oder die den Umständen nach angemessenen Dienste (§ 6) zu leisten; 3. wenn einer der im § 1 bezeichneten Angestellten ohne Einwilligung des Dienstgebers ein selbständiges kaufmännisches Unternehmen betreibt oder im Geschäftszweige des Dienstgebers für eigene oder fremde Rechnung Handelsgeschäfte macht oder wenn ein Angestellter den in § 7, Absatz 4, bezeichneten Verboten zuwiderhandelt; 4. wenn der Angestellte ohne einen rechtmäßigen Hinderungsgrund während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit die Dienstleistung unterläßt oder sich beharrlich weigert, seine Dienste zu leisten oder sich den durch den Gegenstand der Dienstleistung gerechtfertigten Anordnungen des Dienstgebers zu fügen, oder wenn er andere Bedienstete zum Ungehorsam gegen den Dienstgeber zu verleiten sucht; 5. wenn der Angestellte durch eine längere Freiheitsstrafe oder durch Abwesenheit während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit, ausgenommen wegen Krankheit oder Unglücksfalls, an der Verrichtung seiner Dienste gehindert ist; 6. wenn der Angestellte sich Tätlichkeiten, Verletzungen der Sittlichkeit oder erhebliche Ehrverletzungen gegen den Dienstgeber, dessen Stellvertreter, deren Angehörige oder gegen Mitbedienstete zuschulden kommen läßt. The employee can also "fire their employer", see § 26[0] for lawful causes. The proof of guilt is up to the one who fires in the end. I know of one person who got fired unlawful, and their ex-employer is now EUR 80k+ poorer. [0]: https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10008069 https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundes...
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      I think you're mixing up firing and dismissing. You need a reason to fire someone but firing means no notice period and no unemployment benefits, but you don't need a reason to dismiss someone with notice, which is relatively unique nerf in terms of EU workers rights by comparison.
      - whilenot-dev 2y ago
        GP was talking about firing and you were talking about the usual termination of an employment contract with a notice period. You don't need a reason to terminate an employment contract with a notice period, correct, but that doesn't mean it wasn't socially discriminating in origin - that depends on the social situation (eg. older employees can sue for discrimination on age) and the Arbeiterkammer will fight for it.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        If they don't need to provide a reason for terminating you then you also can't have a case for discrimination even if that were to happen since no employer is gonna tell you "yeah, we're firing you behause you're too black/woman", they'll just say "you're fired". AK was never of any use with despicable employers since the employee protection laws are very lax and employers very good at skirting the law so they can abuse you without being legally liable. Just read Kununu reviews of several Austrian companies.
        whilenot-dev 2y ago
        > Just read Kununu reviews of several Austrian companies. I'd rather suggest to go to the Arbeits- und Sozialgericht[0] and listen to some real cases, they are public anyway. [0]: https://www.justiz.gv.at/asg-wien/arbeits-und-sozialgericht-wien.274.de.html https://www.justiz.gv.at/asg-wien/arbeits-und-sozialgericht-...
        Rinzler89 2y ago
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country? Wouldn't be such a big issue if unemployment wouldn't be a pitiful 60% of your salary for ~3 months (yes it can be longer but you're then at the mercy of the system handler if they agree with the job search you're doing, otherwise they can also cut you off if you don't want to take hard jobs like warehouse work) . >you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer AK will only help you sue only in case of unfair dismissal which rarely happens because employers don't need to provide a reason for terminating you as long as they give you the 6-week-3-month notice. So long hours, burnout and hire-and-fire mentality is rampant among Austrian companies, but rarely talked about because it contradicts the "most livable country" narrative paid for by Austria to the Economist who runs that yearly campaign-ad.
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    > The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country? I don't think of Austria as a socialist country and I think it's fair to be able to let people go without reason, but with a notice period (and unemployment benefits and social healthcare). In practice, it won't be much different than with the requirement of a reason anyway: If you'll want to fight it, then you'll need to go through legal ways and contest the employers decision anyway. In Austria there's a 2-week time limit to bring in a lawsuit on unlawful termination of an employment contract if you still want to work there.
  - rettetdemdativ 2y ago
    Where did you get the idea that Austria is a socialist country? It used to be to a certain degree, but those times are long gone, except for strong unionization, the social safety net and worker protections. Austria is a deeply conservative country and has been for much of its history. Vienna is a bit of an exception, as it has actually been ruled by social democrats for ~100 years (with a violent break during the 30s and 40s).
the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
I would argue that's what makes it good employment law.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  How so? Wages are still lower than in Germany, Belgium, Sweden or Netherlands where it's difficult to dismiss someone without proper cause and a long process. Where are the benefits for Austrian workers for this lack of protection against firing versus countries that have protections? And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? What am I not seeing here?
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    > And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. The process is faster than in other european countries, true, but we're still far away from a short process... unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc. A shorter process can open up good opportunities, but demands some security to enjoy the risks. I think we're mostly balancing this act and it's a good thing when it makes Austria more attractive to employers. Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Especially in the case of software engineering it can be beneficial to join unstable employments and be ready to change frequently. I'm mostly seeing it as grateful (depending on market), as you can only see so many system designs fail in your lifetime. :D
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. This might shock you, but lot of Austrian employers behave like this: Hire and fire. Got sick? So long. This shouldn't be acceptable in an EU country. AK is also useless here because the laws are toothless. >unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc Those exist in every other EU company where you can't lay off people just because you don't like their face anymore. >Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Yet those countries score better at innovation, entrepreneurship while having better worker rights and higher wages. How do you explain that? I'm not sure working yourself to death in a race to the bottom on lowering workers rights is a good strategy.
FredPret 2y ago
The easier it is to fire or retrench someone, the easier it is to hire them. And if it's easy for me to hire... then it's easier for the next entrepreneur to hire... paradoxically driving wages up and forcing businesses to keep hiring high so as to keep their competitive edge. The only people suffering under such a system are freeloaders - who get hired and then proceed to lean on labour laws to stick around for a long time after their welcome has worn out.

whilenot-dev 2y ago

The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months on unlimited contracts - limited contacts can't be terminated unilateral. And, depending on social situation, you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer[0] without any costs. [0]: https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendigung/Arbeitgeber-Kuendigung.html https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendi...

jahnu 2y ago
Right there are some restrictions but people seem to have the weird idea that you can't get fired without cause or redundancy. If the employer does it correctly they can essentially get rid of anyone, those restrictions notwithstanding.
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  You can get fired immediately without cause, but that's against the law, and the law is pretty clear on lawful causes: § 27. Als ein wichtiger Grund, der den Dienstgeber zur vorzeitigen Entlassung berechtigt, ist insbesondere anzusehen: 1. Wenn der Angestellte im Dienste untreu ist, sich in seiner Tätigkeit ohne Wissen oder Willen des Dienstgebers von dritten Personen unberechtigte Vorteile zuwenden läßt, insbesondere entgegen der Bestimmung des § 13 eine Provision oder eine sonstige Belohnung annimmt, oder wenn er sich einer Handlung schuldig macht, die ihn des Vertrauens des Dienstgebers unwürdig erscheinen läßt; 2. wenn der Angestellte unfähig ist, die versprochenen oder die den Umständen nach angemessenen Dienste (§ 6) zu leisten; 3. wenn einer der im § 1 bezeichneten Angestellten ohne Einwilligung des Dienstgebers ein selbständiges kaufmännisches Unternehmen betreibt oder im Geschäftszweige des Dienstgebers für eigene oder fremde Rechnung Handelsgeschäfte macht oder wenn ein Angestellter den in § 7, Absatz 4, bezeichneten Verboten zuwiderhandelt; 4. wenn der Angestellte ohne einen rechtmäßigen Hinderungsgrund während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit die Dienstleistung unterläßt oder sich beharrlich weigert, seine Dienste zu leisten oder sich den durch den Gegenstand der Dienstleistung gerechtfertigten Anordnungen des Dienstgebers zu fügen, oder wenn er andere Bedienstete zum Ungehorsam gegen den Dienstgeber zu verleiten sucht; 5. wenn der Angestellte durch eine längere Freiheitsstrafe oder durch Abwesenheit während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit, ausgenommen wegen Krankheit oder Unglücksfalls, an der Verrichtung seiner Dienste gehindert ist; 6. wenn der Angestellte sich Tätlichkeiten, Verletzungen der Sittlichkeit oder erhebliche Ehrverletzungen gegen den Dienstgeber, dessen Stellvertreter, deren Angehörige oder gegen Mitbedienstete zuschulden kommen läßt. The employee can also "fire their employer", see § 26[0] for lawful causes. The proof of guilt is up to the one who fires in the end. I know of one person who got fired unlawful, and their ex-employer is now EUR 80k+ poorer. [0]: https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10008069 https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundes...
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    I think you're mixing up firing and dismissing. You need a reason to fire someone but firing means no notice period and no unemployment benefits, but you don't need a reason to dismiss someone with notice, which is relatively unique nerf in terms of EU workers rights by comparison.
    - whilenot-dev 2y ago
      GP was talking about firing and you were talking about the usual termination of an employment contract with a notice period. You don't need a reason to terminate an employment contract with a notice period, correct, but that doesn't mean it wasn't socially discriminating in origin - that depends on the social situation (eg. older employees can sue for discrimination on age) and the Arbeiterkammer will fight for it.
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        If they don't need to provide a reason for terminating you then you also can't have a case for discrimination even if that were to happen since no employer is gonna tell you "yeah, we're firing you behause you're too black/woman", they'll just say "you're fired". AK was never of any use with despicable employers since the employee protection laws are very lax and employers very good at skirting the law so they can abuse you without being legally liable. Just read Kununu reviews of several Austrian companies.
        whilenot-dev 2y ago
        > Just read Kununu reviews of several Austrian companies. I'd rather suggest to go to the Arbeits- und Sozialgericht[0] and listen to some real cases, they are public anyway. [0]: https://www.justiz.gv.at/asg-wien/arbeits-und-sozialgericht-wien.274.de.html https://www.justiz.gv.at/asg-wien/arbeits-und-sozialgericht-...
        Rinzler89 2y ago
Rinzler89 2y ago
>The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country? Wouldn't be such a big issue if unemployment wouldn't be a pitiful 60% of your salary for ~3 months (yes it can be longer but you're then at the mercy of the system handler if they agree with the job search you're doing, otherwise they can also cut you off if you don't want to take hard jobs like warehouse work) . >you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer AK will only help you sue only in case of unfair dismissal which rarely happens because employers don't need to provide a reason for terminating you as long as they give you the 6-week-3-month notice. So long hours, burnout and hire-and-fire mentality is rampant among Austrian companies, but rarely talked about because it contradicts the "most livable country" narrative paid for by Austria to the Economist who runs that yearly campaign-ad.
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  > The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country? I don't think of Austria as a socialist country and I think it's fair to be able to let people go without reason, but with a notice period (and unemployment benefits and social healthcare). In practice, it won't be much different than with the requirement of a reason anyway: If you'll want to fight it, then you'll need to go through legal ways and contest the employers decision anyway. In Austria there's a 2-week time limit to bring in a lawsuit on unlawful termination of an employment contract if you still want to work there.
- rettetdemdativ 2y ago
  Where did you get the idea that Austria is a socialist country? It used to be to a certain degree, but those times are long gone, except for strong unionization, the social safety net and worker protections. Austria is a deeply conservative country and has been for much of its history. Vienna is a bit of an exception, as it has actually been ruled by social democrats for ~100 years (with a violent break during the 30s and 40s).

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

I would argue that's what makes it good employment law.

Rinzler89 2y ago
How so? Wages are still lower than in Germany, Belgium, Sweden or Netherlands where it's difficult to dismiss someone without proper cause and a long process. Where are the benefits for Austrian workers for this lack of protection against firing versus countries that have protections? And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? What am I not seeing here?
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  > And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. The process is faster than in other european countries, true, but we're still far away from a short process... unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc. A shorter process can open up good opportunities, but demands some security to enjoy the risks. I think we're mostly balancing this act and it's a good thing when it makes Austria more attractive to employers. Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Especially in the case of software engineering it can be beneficial to join unstable employments and be ready to change frequently. I'm mostly seeing it as grateful (depending on market), as you can only see so many system designs fail in your lifetime. :D
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. This might shock you, but lot of Austrian employers behave like this: Hire and fire. Got sick? So long. This shouldn't be acceptable in an EU country. AK is also useless here because the laws are toothless. >unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc Those exist in every other EU company where you can't lay off people just because you don't like their face anymore. >Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Yet those countries score better at innovation, entrepreneurship while having better worker rights and higher wages. How do you explain that? I'm not sure working yourself to death in a race to the bottom on lowering workers rights is a good strategy.

FredPret 2y ago

The easier it is to fire or retrench someone, the easier it is to hire them. And if it's easy for me to hire... then it's easier for the next entrepreneur to hire... paradoxically driving wages up and forcing businesses to keep hiring high so as to keep their competitive edge. The only people suffering under such a system are freeloaders - who get hired and then proceed to lean on labour laws to stick around for a long time after their welcome has worn out.