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I love two stories about elephants. The first one involves a group of elephants who formed a circle around their caretaker's home for a couple of days to griev

I love two stories about elephants. The first one involves a group of elephants who formed a circle around their caretaker's home for a couple of days to grieve when he died. The second one involves an elephant who's shot at his head for poaching, he ran away to where forest rangers camp is, and just laid down to be taken care. The elephant survived. Animals are complex creatures and see, hear and know more than we think. We should stop acting so boneheaded, IMHO.

CoastalCoder 2y ago
Those are wonderful stories, thanks for sharing them. I wonder though if generalizing to most/all animals really makes sense here. I get the sense that these kinds of stories are mostly limited to highly social and fairly intelligent animals like elephants, dolphins, and dogs. Maybe other primates as well, although IIUC they're more likely to be spiteful to some people than are e.g. dogs and elephants.
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  I think it's less about a general truth and more about a general capacity for this behavior.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Add cats to the list as well.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  I'd happily add birds to the list. I had a budgerigar which lived for ~12 years. She had very personal traits. For example she always sat silent until she saw my eyes open, regardless of the hour. She always knew that I was the one I opened the door and sang very happily, again regardless of the time of the day. She liked to troll me and my parents. She ate the corners of my lecture notes, esp. if I didn't pay attention to her (exam periods), flicked a single CD from the stack, grabbed and threw down, studied how it fell, and chirped at me head sideways, trying to tell "look, I did something". I could write tons and tons of things where she was very aware of my emotions and responded to it, or communicated with my parents in their own way. So, I don't think it's limited only to "more complex" animals like dolphins, dogs, and elephants. Cats and birds (oh, look at cockatoos, crows magpies, etc.) are also in that group as well. Cockatoos raid trash bins and find ways to open even the blocked ones if their strength allows. Lastly, here's a parrot which trolls its owner and laughs about what it did! Oh boy, it's aware of what it did [0]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLNSaQCDl8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLNSaQCDl8E
- dylan604 2y ago
  > I wonder though if generalizing to most/all animals really makes sense here. What's the downside to just assuming all animals are intelligent and treating them as such?
- forgotmypw17 2y ago
  From my experience, you can add sparrows, pigeons, and other birds to this list. And if you include things I've read on Facebook, even jumping spiders.
inglor_cz 2y ago
It is entirely possible that if elephants could speak and had versatile hands like we do, they would build a developed civilization. They certainly seem very intelligent and deliberate. A genetic project for the 21st century: try giving them voice and hands. See what happens.
- kridsdale1 2y ago
  The hands would be crushed.
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    Maybe they could have fingers on their trunk. It is already strongly innervated and very sensitive.
  - philistine 2y ago
    You need to watch Babar. That's the blueprint for intelligent elephants.
- itishappy 2y ago
  This is a plot point in one of my favorite sci-fi series: Schlock Mercenary. Elephants are one of the races that have been "uplifted" to sophistry. Some (Neophants) have been engineered further and now have hands. Check out the notes below the following two comics for some of the musings that make these stories so compelling to me: https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-06-16 https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-06-16 https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-05-07 https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-05-07
- mmooss 2y ago
  > It is entirely possible that if elephants could speak and had versatile hands like we do, they would build a developed civilization. How much intelligence is needed? Using a hose is an accomplishment for elephants. People in this thread are amazed that elephants can remember events, even traumatic ones like the death of a child. Has an elephant ever created a structure of any sort? > if elephants could speak I don't think they'd have much to say ...

CoastalCoder 2y ago

Those are wonderful stories, thanks for sharing them. I wonder though if generalizing to most/all animals really makes sense here. I get the sense that these kinds of stories are mostly limited to highly social and fairly intelligent animals like elephants, dolphins, and dogs. Maybe other primates as well, although IIUC they're more likely to be spiteful to some people than are e.g. dogs and elephants.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago
I think it's less about a general truth and more about a general capacity for this behavior.
lolinder 2y ago
Add cats to the list as well.
bayindirh 2y ago
I'd happily add birds to the list. I had a budgerigar which lived for ~12 years. She had very personal traits. For example she always sat silent until she saw my eyes open, regardless of the hour. She always knew that I was the one I opened the door and sang very happily, again regardless of the time of the day. She liked to troll me and my parents. She ate the corners of my lecture notes, esp. if I didn't pay attention to her (exam periods), flicked a single CD from the stack, grabbed and threw down, studied how it fell, and chirped at me head sideways, trying to tell "look, I did something". I could write tons and tons of things where she was very aware of my emotions and responded to it, or communicated with my parents in their own way. So, I don't think it's limited only to "more complex" animals like dolphins, dogs, and elephants. Cats and birds (oh, look at cockatoos, crows magpies, etc.) are also in that group as well. Cockatoos raid trash bins and find ways to open even the blocked ones if their strength allows. Lastly, here's a parrot which trolls its owner and laughs about what it did! Oh boy, it's aware of what it did [0]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLNSaQCDl8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLNSaQCDl8E
dylan604 2y ago
> I wonder though if generalizing to most/all animals really makes sense here. What's the downside to just assuming all animals are intelligent and treating them as such?
forgotmypw17 2y ago
From my experience, you can add sparrows, pigeons, and other birds to this list. And if you include things I've read on Facebook, even jumping spiders.

inglor_cz 2y ago

It is entirely possible that if elephants could speak and had versatile hands like we do, they would build a developed civilization. They certainly seem very intelligent and deliberate. A genetic project for the 21st century: try giving them voice and hands. See what happens.

kridsdale1 2y ago
The hands would be crushed.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  Maybe they could have fingers on their trunk. It is already strongly innervated and very sensitive.
- philistine 2y ago
  You need to watch Babar. That's the blueprint for intelligent elephants.
itishappy 2y ago
This is a plot point in one of my favorite sci-fi series: Schlock Mercenary. Elephants are one of the races that have been "uplifted" to sophistry. Some (Neophants) have been engineered further and now have hands. Check out the notes below the following two comics for some of the musings that make these stories so compelling to me: https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-06-16 https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-06-16 https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-05-07 https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-05-07
mmooss 2y ago
> It is entirely possible that if elephants could speak and had versatile hands like we do, they would build a developed civilization. How much intelligence is needed? Using a hose is an accomplishment for elephants. People in this thread are amazed that elephants can remember events, even traumatic ones like the death of a child. Has an elephant ever created a structure of any sort? > if elephants could speak I don't think they'd have much to say ...