4 ms·

there is this study that shows bumblebees exhibit behaviour that looks a lot like what we would call playing, seems to serve no purpose except being enjoyable.

there is this study that shows bumblebees exhibit behaviour that looks a lot like what we would call playing, seems to serve no purpose except being enjoyable. My sorta crank belief is that we are massively underestimating the intelligence and consciousness of animals (and possibly even plants?) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347222002366 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000334722...

FeepingCreature 2y ago
Plants do not have consciousness. Reacting to stimuli does not require conscious processing. Like, I'm all for "we're underestimating animal brains" but they do have to have brains.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  Why do they have to have brains? Is it impossible that another structure could serve a similar purpose? Like, how long did it take us to figure out what brains are for?
  - FeepingCreature 2y ago
    They don't need to have "brains" in the sense that humans do, ie. discrete neurons and axons, but they do need to have "neural networks" - networks of nonlinear operators with a training mechanism. I'm aware of zero evidence that trees perform computation on a larger-than-single-cell basis.
    - slavik81 2y ago
      You cannot direct growth at the scale of a single cell. There are many computations (based on hormonal gradients and other mechanisms) that occur at the scale of larger structures, such as leaves or branches. Of course, those mechanicisms are not going to create consciousness.
      - FeepingCreature 2y ago
        A fair point!
- nicoburns 2y ago
  We have no evidence that plants have consciousness, but then our only evidence that even other humans have consciousness is that they are somewhat similar to ourselves. We cannot detect it directly. If there were consciousness in the world that was significantly different to our own then we likely would be ignorant of it.
  - FeepingCreature 2y ago
    We do know that human consciousness has something to do with the networks of neurons in our brains. We know this because we can poke specific parts of it and manipulate specific aspects of our consciousness: we can observe a fairly direct correspondence between conscious experience and biological substrate.
    - eszed 2y ago
      To play devil's advocate: have a look at the way plants in a forest communicate with each other - even across different species! That's a complex network, in which individual plants could be analogized to neurons. Do I think forests are conscious in the same way that we are? No. I do think "consciousness" is not a binary, and that we have poor tools and insufficiently-developed models for understanding it.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    > We have no evidence that plants have consciousness, but then our only evidence that even other humans have consciousness is that they are somewhat similar to ourselves. I don't have evidence I have consciousness. You assume you have it, but if you didn't what would really change? It's a made up word and the semantic value of the sentence "I have consciousness" is something like "I am special". Can you define consciousness in an objective way such that, were I to not have consciousness anything would be different for me? It's the secular word for "soul", but at least the religious people have some ideas about what their woowoo nonsense terminology means.
    - nicoburns 2y ago
- CaptainZapp 2y ago
  Well, https://www.sciencealert.com/plants-really-do-scream-weve-simply-never-heard-it-until-now https://www.sciencealert.com/plants-really-do-scream-weve-si...
  - FeepingCreature 2y ago
    Calling this a "scream" is violence against the English language. When a log crackles as it burns, those crackles do not correspond to an experience of suffering.
- mmooss 2y ago
  Consider the slime molds, which have no brain, specifically Physarum polycephalum and Dictyostelium discoideum (you'll forgive me for conflating them a bit in this brief comment): It can solve mazes. [0] "They remember, anticipate and decide." [0] They practice primitive agriculture: "they carry, seed and prudently harvest their food" (though no cultivation - what dummies!). [1] And here's the kicker: "P. polycephalum ... spends most of its life as a single cell containing millions of nuclei, small sacs of DNA, enzymes and proteins." [0], but "When prey bacteria become scarce, Dictyostelium discoideum amoebae aggregate by the tens of thousands and produce a multicellular migratory slug that becomes a fruiting body in which about 20% of cells die to form a sterile stalk. The stalk aids the dispersal of the remaining cells, which differentiate into spores in a spherical structure called the sorus ..." [1] [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11811 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11811 [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09668 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09668
  - FeepingCreature 2y ago
    Water also can solve mazes. That doesn't mean it's conscious any more than slime molds are.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      Maybe we're not all that stupid.

FeepingCreature 2y ago

Plants do not have consciousness. Reacting to stimuli does not require conscious processing. Like, I'm all for "we're underestimating animal brains" but they do have to have brains.

wizzwizz4 2y ago
Why do they have to have brains? Is it impossible that another structure could serve a similar purpose? Like, how long did it take us to figure out what brains are for?
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  They don't need to have "brains" in the sense that humans do, ie. discrete neurons and axons, but they do need to have "neural networks" - networks of nonlinear operators with a training mechanism. I'm aware of zero evidence that trees perform computation on a larger-than-single-cell basis.
  - slavik81 2y ago
    You cannot direct growth at the scale of a single cell. There are many computations (based on hormonal gradients and other mechanisms) that occur at the scale of larger structures, such as leaves or branches. Of course, those mechanicisms are not going to create consciousness.
    - FeepingCreature 2y ago
      A fair point!
nicoburns 2y ago
We have no evidence that plants have consciousness, but then our only evidence that even other humans have consciousness is that they are somewhat similar to ourselves. We cannot detect it directly. If there were consciousness in the world that was significantly different to our own then we likely would be ignorant of it.
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  We do know that human consciousness has something to do with the networks of neurons in our brains. We know this because we can poke specific parts of it and manipulate specific aspects of our consciousness: we can observe a fairly direct correspondence between conscious experience and biological substrate.
  - eszed 2y ago
    To play devil's advocate: have a look at the way plants in a forest communicate with each other - even across different species! That's a complex network, in which individual plants could be analogized to neurons. Do I think forests are conscious in the same way that we are? No. I do think "consciousness" is not a binary, and that we have poor tools and insufficiently-developed models for understanding it.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  > We have no evidence that plants have consciousness, but then our only evidence that even other humans have consciousness is that they are somewhat similar to ourselves. I don't have evidence I have consciousness. You assume you have it, but if you didn't what would really change? It's a made up word and the semantic value of the sentence "I have consciousness" is something like "I am special". Can you define consciousness in an objective way such that, were I to not have consciousness anything would be different for me? It's the secular word for "soul", but at least the religious people have some ideas about what their woowoo nonsense terminology means.
  - nicoburns 2y ago
CaptainZapp 2y ago
Well, https://www.sciencealert.com/plants-really-do-scream-weve-simply-never-heard-it-until-now https://www.sciencealert.com/plants-really-do-scream-weve-si...
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  Calling this a "scream" is violence against the English language. When a log crackles as it burns, those crackles do not correspond to an experience of suffering.
mmooss 2y ago
Consider the slime molds, which have no brain, specifically Physarum polycephalum and Dictyostelium discoideum (you'll forgive me for conflating them a bit in this brief comment): It can solve mazes. [0] "They remember, anticipate and decide." [0] They practice primitive agriculture: "they carry, seed and prudently harvest their food" (though no cultivation - what dummies!). [1] And here's the kicker: "P. polycephalum ... spends most of its life as a single cell containing millions of nuclei, small sacs of DNA, enzymes and proteins." [0], but "When prey bacteria become scarce, Dictyostelium discoideum amoebae aggregate by the tens of thousands and produce a multicellular migratory slug that becomes a fruiting body in which about 20% of cells die to form a sterile stalk. The stalk aids the dispersal of the remaining cells, which differentiate into spores in a spherical structure called the sorus ..." [1] [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11811 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11811 [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09668 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09668
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  Water also can solve mazes. That doesn't mean it's conscious any more than slime molds are.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    Maybe we're not all that stupid.