4 ms·

It’s not just the installation, but all the maintenance that a linux machine needs.

herbst 2y ago
Like confirming the update process every few months? But seriously, I don't get that point. I install Linux on all my families machines and setup auto updates. Either they all turned to tech pros because of their Linux usage or they don't have the maintaining issues that were common 10 years ago anymore.
- philistine 2y ago
  You’re burying the lede here: you installed Linux. That’s what people always work real hard to pretend isn’t a problem on here about Linux: that you have to install it. But the reality is that most everyone, including very experienced users, have never and never will install an OS. It’s not a question of difficulty, they just cannot wrap their heads around it.
  - xethos 2y ago
    But now you've also changed the requirements - it's no longer "All the maintenance a Linux box needs" (which you claimed was the biggest impediment up-thread), now it's the initial hump of getting it installed
    - philistine 2y ago
      Sorry, I'm strictly focusing on my bugaboo about the Linux crowd on here: that they refuse to acknowledge that installing Linux is sine qua non. I do not know one way or the other how easy it is to daily drive Linux.
      - Aachen 2y ago
        Subtitling for those of us not speaking Latin over here: it seems to mean prerequisite As for the "but the installation is so difficult" point, perhaps, but would you trust them to install Windows or macOS onto an otherwise empty SSD? I've had more trouble getting Windows onto systems without needing a CD-RW and corresponding CD drive than I ever did installing Ubuntu, Debian, Mint, Crunchbang, and perhaps more I forgot. Only Arch was more difficult, but then it's meant/advertised to be that way so no surprise there. I've also tried installing macOS and succeeded eventually, but the system was quite dysfunctional. I'd not be surprised if you do a study with 60 random people and it turns out most of them actually get it done for Linux distributions with lower success rates for the OSes that expect to be pre-installed by commercial deals with the hardware vendor And all this only applies if you didn't buy a laptop that comes with a FOSS distribution out of the box. I see it as an advantage that you can pick nearly any hardware and run on it what you want, but if you want to limit it to pre-installed systems then there's that option, too
        philistine 2y ago
        > but would you trust them to install Windows or macOS onto an otherwise empty SSD? It's not a question of trust. It's a question of commerce. People buy computers, and they use the OS on it. If the Linux community really wants to drive adoption by normies, the focus shouldn't be on ease of use, or ease of installation. They should fight to break Microsoft's monopoly and demand to be an optional selection during every purchase.
      - fsflover 2y ago
        Devices with preinstalled Linux exist.
- freefaler 2y ago
  I am a programmer that in 1996 installed my first Linux - a Debian 2.0. It's true that the current state is way better than before. However I don't want to remember the 3 days I lost trying to fix an issue with printer drivers and by going to the source the "driver" worked by parsing the web interface of the network printer. (don't let me start on laptops & battery usage) It's a good idea, but not for consumer grade computing and even me sitting for 14 hours/day in front of one - still don't want to spend the time to fight my laptop to work properly. I won't allow anything other than linux on my servers, but desktop computer or phones are better left without it.
  - Aachen 2y ago
    Specifically for printers, since you mention it, my experience since about 2017 or so has been that my Debian just finds them and can immediately print out of the box (both network and USB), whereas on Windows e.g. my dad has to re-add it in the configuration panel every couple days and drives him mad, but also in a normal case you're expected to configure it on first use I have come across one unsupported printer where you were advised to pick a driver for a similar model number, and even that didn't work for me, but I'll trade that outlier for all the other times where it was so much easier than Windows ever was. One can check the model before purchasing if it's about your own printer (I don't own one anymore, cartridges aren't worth it at the 5 pages per year that I need for outdated transport companies nowadays; copyshops exist) I'm not into printers and their drivers so I've got no idea what changed or who made this happen, but whoever did this for printers on Linux is a real hero "Sadly", I recently helped my dad get set up on a new Windows 11 and that seems to have this behaviour now, too, so Windows does seem to be catching up in usability > (don't let me start on laptops & battery usage) That one is a real trade-off indeed. It's not all sunshine and roses Another one is GPU drivers and WiFi chips, but it's a one-time hardware check and setup thing, so for those issues you could ask someone else to install your system to a functional state and anyone can use it from there with the same learning curve as when they'd use macOS for the first time (Cinnamon looks a whole lot like XP, if that's what they're coming from like I was)
    - amatecha 2y ago

Like confirming the update process every few months? But seriously, I don't get that point. I install Linux on all my families machines and setup auto updates. Either they all turned to tech pros because of their Linux usage or they don't have the maintaining issues that were common 10 years ago anymore.

philistine 2y ago
You’re burying the lede here: you installed Linux. That’s what people always work real hard to pretend isn’t a problem on here about Linux: that you have to install it. But the reality is that most everyone, including very experienced users, have never and never will install an OS. It’s not a question of difficulty, they just cannot wrap their heads around it.
- xethos 2y ago
  But now you've also changed the requirements - it's no longer "All the maintenance a Linux box needs" (which you claimed was the biggest impediment up-thread), now it's the initial hump of getting it installed
  - philistine 2y ago
    Sorry, I'm strictly focusing on my bugaboo about the Linux crowd on here: that they refuse to acknowledge that installing Linux is sine qua non. I do not know one way or the other how easy it is to daily drive Linux.
    - Aachen 2y ago
      Subtitling for those of us not speaking Latin over here: it seems to mean prerequisite As for the "but the installation is so difficult" point, perhaps, but would you trust them to install Windows or macOS onto an otherwise empty SSD? I've had more trouble getting Windows onto systems without needing a CD-RW and corresponding CD drive than I ever did installing Ubuntu, Debian, Mint, Crunchbang, and perhaps more I forgot. Only Arch was more difficult, but then it's meant/advertised to be that way so no surprise there. I've also tried installing macOS and succeeded eventually, but the system was quite dysfunctional. I'd not be surprised if you do a study with 60 random people and it turns out most of them actually get it done for Linux distributions with lower success rates for the OSes that expect to be pre-installed by commercial deals with the hardware vendor And all this only applies if you didn't buy a laptop that comes with a FOSS distribution out of the box. I see it as an advantage that you can pick nearly any hardware and run on it what you want, but if you want to limit it to pre-installed systems then there's that option, too
      - philistine 2y ago
        > but would you trust them to install Windows or macOS onto an otherwise empty SSD? It's not a question of trust. It's a question of commerce. People buy computers, and they use the OS on it. If the Linux community really wants to drive adoption by normies, the focus shouldn't be on ease of use, or ease of installation. They should fight to break Microsoft's monopoly and demand to be an optional selection during every purchase.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      Devices with preinstalled Linux exist.
freefaler 2y ago
I am a programmer that in 1996 installed my first Linux - a Debian 2.0. It's true that the current state is way better than before. However I don't want to remember the 3 days I lost trying to fix an issue with printer drivers and by going to the source the "driver" worked by parsing the web interface of the network printer. (don't let me start on laptops & battery usage) It's a good idea, but not for consumer grade computing and even me sitting for 14 hours/day in front of one - still don't want to spend the time to fight my laptop to work properly. I won't allow anything other than linux on my servers, but desktop computer or phones are better left without it.
- Aachen 2y ago
  Specifically for printers, since you mention it, my experience since about 2017 or so has been that my Debian just finds them and can immediately print out of the box (both network and USB), whereas on Windows e.g. my dad has to re-add it in the configuration panel every couple days and drives him mad, but also in a normal case you're expected to configure it on first use I have come across one unsupported printer where you were advised to pick a driver for a similar model number, and even that didn't work for me, but I'll trade that outlier for all the other times where it was so much easier than Windows ever was. One can check the model before purchasing if it's about your own printer (I don't own one anymore, cartridges aren't worth it at the 5 pages per year that I need for outdated transport companies nowadays; copyshops exist) I'm not into printers and their drivers so I've got no idea what changed or who made this happen, but whoever did this for printers on Linux is a real hero "Sadly", I recently helped my dad get set up on a new Windows 11 and that seems to have this behaviour now, too, so Windows does seem to be catching up in usability > (don't let me start on laptops & battery usage) That one is a real trade-off indeed. It's not all sunshine and roses Another one is GPU drivers and WiFi chips, but it's a one-time hardware check and setup thing, so for those issues you could ask someone else to install your system to a functional state and anyone can use it from there with the same learning curve as when they'd use macOS for the first time (Cinnamon looks a whole lot like XP, if that's what they're coming from like I was)
  - amatecha 2y ago