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> In Victoria and Queensland alone, the government nets over A$1B a year. Always feels the government is riding the public far too much. The government is arro

> In Victoria and Queensland alone, the government nets over A$1B a year. Always feels the government is riding the public far too much. The government is arrogant and corrupt. If speeding cameras were being used to track and spy on people then that would be a serious problem, but if they're just being very effective at catching speeders, that seems fine? Speeding is a major safety problem, and one of the main problems with speeding is that enforcement is so sparse, drivers are tempted to speed knowing that they usually get away with it.

o11c 2y ago
The other major problem with traffic cameras is that they often shorten the duration of the yellow light at the same time.
- stephen_g 2y ago
  That is specifically something that has happened in certain US cities, not in Australia.
- WWLink 2y ago
  Traffic cameras should be used to figure out why people are doing what they're doing at a given intersection. A lot of the time they can be used to figure that out, and eliminate the need for them. Like I feel like the standard for traffic cameras is they should be temporary installations used in an investigation to figure out why so many people speed or run red lights or something. And yep, they do eventually figure out interesting tricks. This one's dumb, but an observation I noticed lately is lots of intersections will change to all red and then light the pedestrian walk light before they change the car light to green. Why? Probably to lower the amount of people crossing the street getting hit by someone turning right in their car. Neat trick.
  - com2kid 2y ago
    > Why? Probably to lower the amount of people crossing the street getting hit by someone turning right in their car. Neat trick. That is exactly the reason, you can find plenty of studies on it!
    - thelittleone 2y ago
      And then these studies start producing consistent revenue (>1B a year) and they can't afford to turn them off, whatever the impact on the public. These things in isolation, to me, can seem minor, but when combined, it feels a little like death by a thousand cuts.
      - com2kid 2y ago
        Having a 5 second delay between the crosswalk light and the street light doesn't increase revenue, especially because in America, free right turns are ignored by red light cameras, and the light timing change is purely about preventing accidents for cars taking right turns.
      - WWLink 2y ago
        Well, if they find a remedy for why so many people are breaking the law and they aren't breaking the law anymore, the camera can be moved somewhere else. Or, the people who are still getting nailed by the camera are more likely to deserve the ticket. No actually, the town I went to college in installed cameras at 3 intersections and was able to get rid of them at 2 after figuring out solutions. And honestly, a LOT of red light runs are stupid silly ones where, for example, the green left turn arrow lights up first! Then the person next to them goes without realizing that straight traffic has a red light. i see that all the time.
    - WWLink 2y ago
      The 'dumb' part was me being surprised by it :) I forgot to point that out lol.
  - cruffle_duffle 2y ago
    As a pedestrian that “walk before green” light is super rad. What I imagine it is targeting is letting pedestrians “win” and get into the street where they are more visible so they don’t get ran over by people making left or right turns into them. If you let the cars light “win” then people will immediately turn right and “cut off” the pedestrian. Dunno, just a guess. My city started doing this pattern a few years ago and I am very curious about the research backing it up. It does make me feel “safer” crossing streets at busy intersections. But I’d be curious what the actual rationale says about it.
    - WWLink 2y ago
      I should add here that the 'dumb' was my observation and being surprised by it. :)
ruthmarx 2y ago
> Speeding is a major safety problem Fines are even more lucrative relative to the extent that speeding is actually a problem.
- mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  Then your complaint is with the penalty, not the enforcement.
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    No, it's with both. Enforcement should be relative to the problem.
kweks 2y ago
Taking into account the distances in Australia, I've never understood why the speed limit is so low. Australia has an average "top speed" of 100km/h (110km/h in certain states) - whereas many other countries, with varying degrees of better or worse infrastructure, have average "top speed" of 130km/h - and yet have similar traffic fatalities. Turkey: 130km/h (and fairly poor infrastructure compared to europe): 6.7 fatalities per 100k France: 130km/h (most people drive at ~145 on highways - only 1 point if you hit a radar) - 5 fatalities per 100k Australia: 100km/h - 4.5 fatalities per 100k It can't just be speed, otherwise other 'similar' countries would be orders of magnitude above Australia.
- tiew9Vii 2y ago
  > It can't just be speed, otherwise other 'similar' countries would be orders of magnitude above Australia. It's not just speed. The standards of driving in Australia is terrible. There's an aggressive attitude, tail gating, no lane discipline, if someone is going way under the speed limit, you come to an overtaking lane, go to over take they'll speed up as "you are not passing me" etc. If you watch "Dash Cam Owners Australia" on YouTube half the incidents are avoidable but because "It's my right of way" or "I'm in the right" the driver will drive straight in to the incident rather than give way and avoid ignoring being “dead right” is still dead. I've driven/ridden in countries with terrible roads, no real rules, and to the average person looks like chaos but it seems to just work. The difference is non of these countries are aggressive drivers. When I moved to Australia I used to think the low national speed limits were silly. Now I think it'd be carnage if they are increased given the Australian driving standards.
  - result2vino 2y ago
    I just spent a few weeks in the US. I assure you that Australia is fine.
    - cruffle_duffle 2y ago
      There is some kind of trope that goes “my $location has the shittiest drivers in the world”. The actual reality is all drivers suck everywhere in the world. Except me and you of course. We are obviously above average. (And there is some urban lore floating around that says “most” people surveyed report they are “above average” drivers) I also think the same formula holds for shipping companies, cellphone carriers, and airlines. All airlines suck, all cellphone providers suck and all shipping companies suck too. Oh and banks too.

o11c 2y ago

The other major problem with traffic cameras is that they often shorten the duration of the yellow light at the same time.

stephen_g 2y ago
That is specifically something that has happened in certain US cities, not in Australia.
WWLink 2y ago
Traffic cameras should be used to figure out why people are doing what they're doing at a given intersection. A lot of the time they can be used to figure that out, and eliminate the need for them. Like I feel like the standard for traffic cameras is they should be temporary installations used in an investigation to figure out why so many people speed or run red lights or something. And yep, they do eventually figure out interesting tricks. This one's dumb, but an observation I noticed lately is lots of intersections will change to all red and then light the pedestrian walk light before they change the car light to green. Why? Probably to lower the amount of people crossing the street getting hit by someone turning right in their car. Neat trick.
- com2kid 2y ago
  > Why? Probably to lower the amount of people crossing the street getting hit by someone turning right in their car. Neat trick. That is exactly the reason, you can find plenty of studies on it!
  - thelittleone 2y ago
    And then these studies start producing consistent revenue (>1B a year) and they can't afford to turn them off, whatever the impact on the public. These things in isolation, to me, can seem minor, but when combined, it feels a little like death by a thousand cuts.
    - com2kid 2y ago
      Having a 5 second delay between the crosswalk light and the street light doesn't increase revenue, especially because in America, free right turns are ignored by red light cameras, and the light timing change is purely about preventing accidents for cars taking right turns.
    - WWLink 2y ago
      Well, if they find a remedy for why so many people are breaking the law and they aren't breaking the law anymore, the camera can be moved somewhere else. Or, the people who are still getting nailed by the camera are more likely to deserve the ticket. No actually, the town I went to college in installed cameras at 3 intersections and was able to get rid of them at 2 after figuring out solutions. And honestly, a LOT of red light runs are stupid silly ones where, for example, the green left turn arrow lights up first! Then the person next to them goes without realizing that straight traffic has a red light. i see that all the time.
  - WWLink 2y ago
    The 'dumb' part was me being surprised by it :) I forgot to point that out lol.
- cruffle_duffle 2y ago
  As a pedestrian that “walk before green” light is super rad. What I imagine it is targeting is letting pedestrians “win” and get into the street where they are more visible so they don’t get ran over by people making left or right turns into them. If you let the cars light “win” then people will immediately turn right and “cut off” the pedestrian. Dunno, just a guess. My city started doing this pattern a few years ago and I am very curious about the research backing it up. It does make me feel “safer” crossing streets at busy intersections. But I’d be curious what the actual rationale says about it.
  - WWLink 2y ago
    I should add here that the 'dumb' was my observation and being surprised by it. :)

ruthmarx 2y ago

> Speeding is a major safety problem Fines are even more lucrative relative to the extent that speeding is actually a problem.

mitthrowaway2 2y ago
Then your complaint is with the penalty, not the enforcement.
- ruthmarx 2y ago
  No, it's with both. Enforcement should be relative to the problem.

kweks 2y ago

Taking into account the distances in Australia, I've never understood why the speed limit is so low. Australia has an average "top speed" of 100km/h (110km/h in certain states) - whereas many other countries, with varying degrees of better or worse infrastructure, have average "top speed" of 130km/h - and yet have similar traffic fatalities. Turkey: 130km/h (and fairly poor infrastructure compared to europe): 6.7 fatalities per 100k France: 130km/h (most people drive at ~145 on highways - only 1 point if you hit a radar) - 5 fatalities per 100k Australia: 100km/h - 4.5 fatalities per 100k It can't just be speed, otherwise other 'similar' countries would be orders of magnitude above Australia.

tiew9Vii 2y ago
> It can't just be speed, otherwise other 'similar' countries would be orders of magnitude above Australia. It's not just speed. The standards of driving in Australia is terrible. There's an aggressive attitude, tail gating, no lane discipline, if someone is going way under the speed limit, you come to an overtaking lane, go to over take they'll speed up as "you are not passing me" etc. If you watch "Dash Cam Owners Australia" on YouTube half the incidents are avoidable but because "It's my right of way" or "I'm in the right" the driver will drive straight in to the incident rather than give way and avoid ignoring being “dead right” is still dead. I've driven/ridden in countries with terrible roads, no real rules, and to the average person looks like chaos but it seems to just work. The difference is non of these countries are aggressive drivers. When I moved to Australia I used to think the low national speed limits were silly. Now I think it'd be carnage if they are increased given the Australian driving standards.
- result2vino 2y ago
  I just spent a few weeks in the US. I assure you that Australia is fine.
  - cruffle_duffle 2y ago
    There is some kind of trope that goes “my $location has the shittiest drivers in the world”. The actual reality is all drivers suck everywhere in the world. Except me and you of course. We are obviously above average. (And there is some urban lore floating around that says “most” people surveyed report they are “above average” drivers) I also think the same formula holds for shipping companies, cellphone carriers, and airlines. All airlines suck, all cellphone providers suck and all shipping companies suck too. Oh and banks too.