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ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem
- aristus 2y agoYou can like the work but hate the jerk. The real question comes when you decide whether to financially support a jerk's work.
- baggy_trough 2y agoA jerk is one thing; a murderer is something else.
- kikokikokiko 2y agoIf a murderer creates a file system/energy source/mouse trap that is effectively better than all of the alternatives, and generates value to the world, what he did in his personal life is effectively moot. There is no ethics problem involved in choosing the best solution to a problem, when that solution exists.
- ensignavenger 2y agoIf financially supporting said murderer allows them to continue to possibly murder more, then I would say there is a moral dilemma. Less so when the murderer is in jail and unlikely to ever really benefit from your using said solution.
- creshal 2y agoReiserFS hasn't been the best solution in a long, long while. Even before the murder case it was often more trouble than it was worth.
- exe34 2y agoI used it for a few months, lost a few files and moved on to ext3 at the time. I think his press notoriety came soon after that.
- creshal 2y ago"Of course Reiser's wife would go missing, have you seen how often things end up missing in his file systems?" used to be funny for a moment.
- dagmx 2y agoYeah most major distros that used it (like OpenSuse) moved away before the murder case. His wife was reported missing in September 2006. OpenSuse dumped it in October 2006. She wasn’t feared dead yet. He was arrested April 2008. By the time he was even a suspect, his work had already been dropped because it was not reliable enough.
- mhd 2y ago> effectively better than all of the alternatives Which gladly rarely happens, so often you still have sufficient choice. Now, if it turns out Euler sabotaged some bridges and caused deaths, you'd still have a hard time avoiding using e. But for software? It's usually rather easy to find alternatives. And ReiserFS never was an exception here.
- dent9876543 2y agoYet for many people, the very act of choosing results in a halo that goes beyond the acquisition itself. You may think you’re choosing a technology, and nothing further. But others may see your decision as a broader endorsement. Are they right to do so? Don’t know. Maybe not. But it is a real effect. The quandary is therefore ethical.
- LoganDark 2y ago> There is no ethics problem involved in choosing the best solution to a problem, when that solution exists. I constantly see people insisting there is, though. Lots of people boycott software just based on the surrounding context.
- baggy_trough 2y agoI agree that there is no ethics problem. The problem is in the realm of personal distaste.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoThere is also such a thing as lobbying for laws that make a lot of people's lives difficult, destroy QALYs, and possibly cause stochastic death. It's only called "murder" when it's trivial to measure it, see.
- jl6 2y agoThe idea of “stochastic death” is a dangerous and unhelpful escalation of rhetoric that amounts to an excuse to call someone a murderer because they said something you disagree with. It’s the idea that Biden was somehow a “partial murderer” because he said something that might have, possibly, maybe, influenced a wacko to attempt an assassination on Trump. If we start calling everyone a type of murderer, it cheapens the word, dishonors the victims of actual murder, and hardens hearts with hate and fear of the dreaded Other when what the tribalists need most is a little mutual understanding.
- baggy_trough 2y agoLobbying for laws is not murder, you are correct on that. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
- ch1kkenm4ss4 2y ago[flagged]
- ensignavenger 2y agoSo once a jerk artist is dead and can no longer benefit from their work, it becomes easier to consume their art without moral concern?
- aristus 2y agoYes, literally. Same argument applies to limited copyright terms. Though I'd say it would be with less concern, not completely without it.
- ch1kkenm4ss4 2y ago[flagged]
- RobotToaster 2y agoI guess that would depend on if their kids are jerks?
- RockRobotRock 2y agoI think so, yeah.
- Kye 2y agoSometimes the artist put too much of themselves in the work. For example: I tried reading Orson Scott Card's Iron Man comics and there was just too much homophobic nonsense throughout.
- em-bee 2y agoi stopped reading the ringworld series by larry niven when i found that he kept repeating how sex was used to seal a business transaction. it added nothing to the story and just seemed like wishful thinking from the author. i can't blame them for it. it's only natural. when i write there is a lot of my personality in it too. in part that is the point and in many cases it is what makes a work worth reading. unless it makes the story unreadable like in our examples.
- jccalhoun 2y agoI agree. We all make our own decisions. I won't say someone is wrong for making a different decision. For me, there are people who's product I won't use because they are a jerk and I don't want to contribute to their financial success. But if that same jerk was one of the creators of a commonly used language that is ubiquitous I won't avoid it because that person doesn't financially benefit from it.
- marcodiego 2y agoBill Gates multi decade marriage came to an end after his closeness with Epstein became public. I don't think anyone stopped buying ms software because of it. Ok, he no longer works there, but I'm sure he still benefits from it.
- paulryanrogers 2y agoIf a video were released of Bill with a minor then I'd expect Microsoft to take a huge hit. Though it'd have to be irrefutable video. Because we've seen other Epstein accomplices thrive despite circumstancal evidence, like a certain real estate mogul.
- adamgordonbell 2y agoHey, I made this. It uses OpenAI voices for Hans and others, which some found too robotic. The topic on my mind around this was: in the large, like MJ or Woody Allen, it's hard to make a call on the art vs. artist. But in the small, it's much easier because people aren't divided into domains. It's all mixed together. And if you can't work with people, if you can't be a team player you limit your abilities. ReiserFS4 didn't get merged because of his empathy issues, and those issues are also presumably contributors to his murdering his wife. So it's all wrapped up together. Making stuff is a team sport. Even people like Fabrice Bellard seem to be successful because of collaboration. Everything uses FFmpeg, but he's no longer the main contributor. It's successful because of people working together. But yeah, let me know what you think.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Blackthorn 2y ago> The topic on my mind around this was: in the large, like MJ or Woody Allen, it's hard to make a call on the art vs. artist Why do people think this is a dichotomy, or a call to be made in the first place? Instead of artist being an inseparable part of the art itself? Chuck Tingle put it pretty well: > strange when buds talk on 'separate the art from the artist'. a painting is not just a square that ends at canvas edge. it is history and intention. if you build wall between them you are numbing yourself and only experiencing half the art. the artist IS THE ART, at least to me > separating artist from art is like walking out of a play during intermission youre missing half the show bud, for better or worse. gotta accept theres a whole second half and grapple with that because its all one big performance
- Kye 2y agoOne of the great thinkers of our time.
- Blackthorn 2y agoI completely agree, with no irony.
- donatj 2y agoSome part of me always assumes people are innocent. I think I just see too much of myself in others and when they commit some act I never would it seems genuinely outside reality. I remember vividly being a very tech-involved twenty year old, extremely excited about Reiser4 when this all came to light and thinking "There's no way he did it! They don't even have a body, they don't even know she is dead" right up until he lead the investigators to the body. Then I felt so dumb. The whole thing honestly lead to a lot of self reflection and questioning of my own instincts. Frankly, it made me a little more cynical about people overall. That said, I am still a perennial optimist.
- mrweasel 2y ago> Some dumb part of me that always thinks people are innocent. You're not alone. Hans Reiser is one of two people where I had the notion that "Why would he do that? That makes no sense." The other one is Peter Madsen (the Danish submarine guy), he had a few month earlier been part of a TV show about find some German WWII u-boat, where he was absolutely brilliant and entertaining. For ReiserFS a large part of the issue, which is also addressed here, is that there just wasn't that many developers that cared that much for the filesystem. The Namesys developered cared, in large part because they where paid. Obviously they also had bills to pay, so when no one wanted to pay them to work on ReiserFS it just feel apart. We see this with many of the project that thrown into e.g. The Apache Foundation, the code is thrown over the fence, but with no advocates, no developer resources and no money, so the code is just left to rot.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoNarcissists can be very charming. You don't know the inner lives of most people and it's impossible to judge them by their public persona when it's entirely under their control. Celebrity actors are notable specialists in this area.
- Aurornis 2y ago> where he was absolutely brilliant and entertaining. When I was young and naive I thought con artists would be easy to spot: They would be obviously bad people and they would lie in everything they said. The challenge with successful con artists is that they tend to be very charismatic. They might also tell the truth 99% of the time. Telling mostly truths is the key to building trust, after which they can slip in a lie here and there and it will go unquestioned. This is a major problem in pop-culture science and health discourse right now. There are a lot of podcasters and bloggers who spend most of their time repeating simple and undeniable truths (exercise is good, you should eat more vegetables, getting sleep makes you feel better, going outside is a good idea) and therefore build up a lot of trust. Then they'll change gears to wacky alternative medicine ideas and slip them in between all of the obvious truths. For people who consume hours of their podcasts every week, those alternative medicine and pseudoscience claims are hard to identify among all the other simple truths.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jccalhoun 2y agoI'm very glad there is a transcript so I didn't have to listen to it. It seems like in this case ReiserFS is being deprecated and removed because it is no longer used and not because of who the creator is? https://www.phoronix.com/news/ReiserFS-Deprecate-Remove-2025 https://www.phoronix.com/news/ReiserFS-Deprecate-Remove-2025 If so, then this isn't really about separating the art from the artist?
- cmiller1 2y agoMy takeaway was that Han's problems were intrinsically tied to the both the architecture and code in ways that made it difficult for others to contribute and fix. The artist's influence on the art caused its ultimate demise.
- hollerith 2y ago"Hans's problems".
- lambdasquirrel 2y agoIt’s not just Hans. Who hasn’t known some leading artist who was like this? Or even some former colleague? I’m sure most of us “artsy” types go through some phase like this, but this guy made it his whole life, and never questioned it until it was too late, too little. The art and the artist thing is real.
- wlonkly 2y agoThe post you replied to was only correcting the apostrophe in the grandparent.
- dagmx 2y agoYeah, it’s been almost two decades. Anyone saying it’s art vs artist now would only make sense if people were clamouring to keep it in because of who the creator is. Otherwise this is no different than any other project that fell off the wagon of support due to issues in a maintainers life outside the project.
- stonethrowaway 2y ago[flagged]
- dang 2y ago> Maybe the bitch deserved it You can't do that on HN and I've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- kryptiskt 2y agoReiserFS is named after the author, which is an oddity among file systems or open source projects in general. I wonder if it would have seen further development if it had been named something else.
- psychoslave 2y agoI don't know how much of an oddity it is, but Linux is probably the most known FLOSS. OK Linus himself wanted to name it "freak" or something like that.
- sjagoe 2y agoBut if I recall, it was not named that by Linus, but by the FTP administrator, who didn't like the name Linus chose.
- ronsor 2y agoThe FTP admin knew no one would be interested in a project named "Freax"
- SunlitCat 2y agoMeanwhile we have a graphics suite called gimp, a 3D model loading library called assimp and if someone calls for blender, you can't be sure if it's the kitchen utensil or the 3d creation suite. :)
- johnnyanmac 2y agoand a version control called Git. The old tech world was many things, but "politically correct" is far down that list. I'll be fair and note that Assimp pre-dated the modern vernacular of the obvious word that comes to mind and was actually reasonable (Open ASSet IMPort Libray).
- ribcage 2y agoDebian = Debra + Ian
- rabite 2y ago[dead]
- up2isomorphism 2y ago“ of how technical skills and personal integrity need to go hand in hand.” I would rather say people should realize technical skills does not necessarily imply personal integrity.
- throw894389 2y agoMaybe I am too numb, but I do not see problem here. People in prison should be allowed to work. He is serving his sentence. Where is the problem? One day he will be out of prison. Does it mean he should never ever be allowed to work again? US has a problem with "prison vengeance", where prisoners are not allowed to even have a TV. But it would be cheaper and decrease overall crime. Current prison system is just raising more criminals.
- shaky-carrousel 2y agoI've read that the American prison system is punitive instead of rehabilitative. The punitive system has a higher reincidence level, which I guess is good if you want to keep a specific portion as indentured servants.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago>US has a problem with "prison vengeance", where prisoners are not allowed to even have a TV. But it would be cheaper and decrease overall crime. Current prison system is just raising more criminals. we americcans don't rehabilitate. We just want homeless off the street and out of mind. Clearly if you did a bad thing in life you are a bad person and deserve everything taken from you. California (a more progressive state) had a propostion this election cycle to simply, as I'll quote from a summary: >This proposed amendment to California's constitution would bar slavery in any form and repeal a current provision allowing involuntary servitude as a punishment for crime. and it didn't pass. This is already federally illegal, but even the idea of taking some time to clarify the language wasn't popular. Meanwhile prop 36 >This ballot measure would increase penalties for repeated theft offenses and certain drug crimes, including some involving fentanyl. It also would create a drug court treatment program for people with multiple drug possession convictions. Passed overwhelmingly with 70%. Nevermind the government is dismantling those who spread the Fentalnyl into hospitals with recknless abandon as we speak. Just gotta get them druggies off the street. Their fault for getting injuected by doctors, I guess. ----- I guess as people say these days: "It's not about winning, it's about sending a message". If even half the amount California spent on "hard on crime" simply went towards getting these homeless a job, the problem would essentially be solved for many. Then half the remaining can go towards rehabilitating those with genuine addictions and other mental health issues.
- karmakaze 2y agoI didn't know about this aspect of the filesystem. Seems like WinFS executed better than Windows Longhorn/Vista. > Hans: Reiser4 is not only a file system. It is a software framework for creation, assembly, and customizing file systems. > It’s a bit hard for me to understand his vision. But I think its a bit like replaces a file based system with a database, where files can easily be searched and indexed and have metadata and plugins can add whole new ways of seeing the file system layer. It’s a lot.
- RajT88 2y agoSeparating art from artist, I am convinced comes down to your own personal cognitive style. Some can, some cannot. I think all takes are valid and would not try and force my own views on anyone else.
- jraph 2y ago> Some can, some cannot. Can or want? I don't think it's a question of capability, but a question of conviction. At least for some of us. Separating or not can have real consequences. The question is what consequences do we prefer? You are suggesting the status quo. You can do this for any topic, but I don't believe this helps progressing much (of course, you might be uninterested in this, but I could still be interested to show you that you might want to reconsider). If you believe there are concrete consequences, you may want to convince people your way, and this seems valid too. I agree with not forcing. You can't anyway. But arguing and debating ideas still has value. It can make people change their views, or at least be interesting. You can't reject someone's idea that the art can be harmful because of the artist as personal preferences or way of thinkingnfor instance. The more interesting thing to do will be to prove them wrong.
- dagmx 2y agoThe premise of this post is incorrect. ReiserFS stuck around for almost two decades after his crime. The reason it’s being removed has very little to do with his crime and more to do with the stability and maintenance capabilities of it. For reference, his wife was missing in 2006. He was prosecuted in 2008. It was deprecated in 2022 and scheduled to be removed in 2025. How does someone believe that it’s due to his history when there’s been almost twenty years of grace? The reason for removal has been very clear by the Linux maintainers. There was a consensus among upstream kernel developers to deprecate ReiserFS given that there are no notable users of it any longer, the code is barely maintained, and no legitimate reasons have been found to user ReiserFS over any of the modern alternatives like EXT4, XFS, Btrfs, F2FS, etc.
- dijit 2y agoThat's not entirely fair, being included in the trunk of linux for a long time is normal even if something is unused... I know people were avoiding ReiserFS because of its indeterminate future in the backtrack linux 2.0 days (March 2007). It's a cart and horse problem, nobody wants to use it because they think there's no investment, since developing it could be seen outside as being an indemnification of the person. Lack of use means that less people even want to invest in developing it further, making it take a back seat, which then leads to even fewer scenarios where it's used, because it's not competitive, and so on. The Linux kernel rarely removes stuff. This is not something that should be taken as a measure of support; If we want to track reiserFS properly we must follow the commits before prosecution and after, along with some usage trends would paint a real picture. There's a whole host of dead things in Linux (AFS, which even Apple doesn't support for nearly 2 decades) that isn't removed yet.
- dagmx 2y agoI can’t find a reference to a filesystem called AFS. Would you have a link? As far as I know there was Macintosh File System (MFS) which was replaced by HFS/+ and finally APFS. But ReiserFS was also infamous for its difficult to maintain nature at the time of its inclusion. Linus himself was against a lot of aspects of it. They capitulated to community pressure to include it, but it was always going to be a project with a high bus factor regardless of his crime.
- resters 2y agoBack in the day on Slashdot the Reiser/ReiserFS saga was one of the more interesting linux-related dramas. Seems like the other FS options in the kernel are now unequivocally superior and ReiserFS is completely obsolete.
- shaw00000 2y agoReiser4 is still in development and it is the successor to ReiserFS. It's probably a good idea to rename the filesystem in order to remove as much as possible any historical ties to Hans Reiser. It's time to move on and forget about Hans.
- joecool1029 2y agoEdward really should have renamed it. By the way it's been reiser5 all of this current decade: https://marc.info/?l=reiserfs-devel&m=157780043509663&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=reiserfs-devel&m=157780043509663&w=2
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mrbonner 2y agoI always thought ReiserFS meant The Journal FS, as Reise in German means journey (Winterreise from Schubert). I didn't know this guy gave it his name.
- Brian_K_White 2y agoI was always a fan of reiser3, never had any knowledge or opinion of Hans. But listening to what he has to say towards the end here, even now after all this time, all I hear is: He expresses remourse that he wasn't smart enough to press the right buttons to get the right responses out of everyone else. He regrets that this miscalculation resulted in him failing to achieve his goals. He litterally only says it that way. Not "It must have really sucked dealing with me. What a dick I was...", just "it was a mistake not taking other people's feelings into account" The kernel credits are interesting. That is a little more possibly genuine. It seems genuine, that he really wants them to be acknowledged simply because they should be and not because he calculated that it makes him look better. But I don't know how materially valuable that might be for parole reasons. If it might make even a little difference there, then you can't trust it, because this is not a benefit of the doubt situation, this is a known entity who has already manipulated others many times, and so now it no longer matters that an act might finally be genuine this time, it makes no sense to assume that in this case. But in my own example of pressing buttons, I try not to shit on behavior I want to see. All else being equal I want to just accept that small act as good on it's face and leave it at that. Also because it seems petty not to, because he gets nothing else at least from me, forever, because his wife can't be forgiven and redemptioned back to life.