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"should be effortful" and "should not be fun" are not opposites -- they aren't even related. Most people who "reach the top" of particular domains do so because

"should be effortful" and "should not be fun" are not opposites -- they aren't even related. Most people who "reach the top" of particular domains do so because they get enjoyment out of the required practice. There are also lots of valuable intellectual tasks that appear more fun than effortful at face value. Watching talks at conferences springs to mind.

vanjajaja1 2y ago
i made a similar reply, linking to the ideas of flow state etc [1]. i dont know why you'd chase the feeling of effort, surely you'd avoid the feeling of effort where possible without reducing learning [1] https://x.com/vanjajaja1/status/1756426000613994952 https://x.com/vanjajaja1/status/1756426000613994952
seizethecheese 2y ago
> Most people who "reach the top" of particular domains do so because they get enjoyment out of the required practice. Citation needed. There are many anecdotes of peak performers not liking the practice. I guess we could all agree that being at least able to tolerate the practice must be a necessary condition.
- exe34 2y ago
  I've often spent days figuring something out of spite rather than enjoyment. I think people have all sorts of motivations.
- nemoniac 2y ago
  “I hated every minute of training, but I said, 'Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion'.” ― Muhammad Ali
christophilus 2y ago
> Learning is not supposed to be fun. It doesn't have to be actively not fun either, but the primary feeling should be that of effort. It should look a lot less like that "10 minute full body" workout from your local digital media creator and a lot more like a serious session at the gym. I don’t think the author disagrees with you. Some people really enjoy the effort of a tough workout. But they don’t do it primarily for the fun. Can / should workouts be entertaining? Sure. But there’s a difference between a primarily entertaining bit of content and a primarily workout-oriented bit of content.
salomonk_mur 2y ago
Completely agree. As commented elsewhere, the main driver in true learning is practice. I also wholly reject the idea that this "edutainment" content is useless. Same as spaced repetition, once you see some concepts often enough (which the algorithm guarantees if it knows you are into that topic), you will learn something. I don't consume such content myself, but to dismiss it just looks as rejecting formats different than what you used.
- sunrunner 2y ago
  > spaced repetition, once you see some concepts often enough I think there's a quote on this but I can't remember by whom, but I think it's something like "Familiarity doesn't lead to repetion, repetition leads to familiarity." Even if not a quote, I think the idea (with spaced repetion adding the concept of time) of repeated exposure to a subject as the thing that drives understanding, and not understanding just being a thing that itself allows people to do the subject a lot, is an important one to keep in mind for learning any new topic, particularly ones that are perhaps further away from your current knowledge base, and so feel inherently trickier. And if you fully comfortable with the subject, you're probably not learning anything at that point ;)
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  Practice is the boring person's substitute for a diversity of real projects that interesting people work on to strengthen their learning. If you are boring, you can't be helped.
ignoramous 2y ago
> "should be effortful" and "should not be fun" are not opposites Karpathy doesn't really say they are. What he's postulating is that learning must be purposefully effortful. Kind of like playing any sport, say Football / Volleyball. You'll enjoy it, but it isn't without effort.
tim333 2y ago
Thinking of learning skiing rather than academic stuff I think fun is quite a good guide. If it's too easy you don't learn much and kind of get bored, too hard and frustrated or injured but the most fun is a bit challenging where you learn new things but not too hard. I think out instincts may be more evolved for physical skills than academic ones.
zigzag312 2y ago
It's possible to spend a lot of effort, without learning anything. So, effort is not the goal.

vanjajaja1 2y ago

i made a similar reply, linking to the ideas of flow state etc [1]. i dont know why you'd chase the feeling of effort, surely you'd avoid the feeling of effort where possible without reducing learning [1] https://x.com/vanjajaja1/status/1756426000613994952 https://x.com/vanjajaja1/status/1756426000613994952

seizethecheese 2y ago

> Most people who "reach the top" of particular domains do so because they get enjoyment out of the required practice. Citation needed. There are many anecdotes of peak performers not liking the practice. I guess we could all agree that being at least able to tolerate the practice must be a necessary condition.

exe34 2y ago
I've often spent days figuring something out of spite rather than enjoyment. I think people have all sorts of motivations.
nemoniac 2y ago
“I hated every minute of training, but I said, 'Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion'.” ― Muhammad Ali

christophilus 2y ago

> Learning is not supposed to be fun. It doesn't have to be actively not fun either, but the primary feeling should be that of effort. It should look a lot less like that "10 minute full body" workout from your local digital media creator and a lot more like a serious session at the gym. I don’t think the author disagrees with you. Some people really enjoy the effort of a tough workout. But they don’t do it primarily for the fun. Can / should workouts be entertaining? Sure. But there’s a difference between a primarily entertaining bit of content and a primarily workout-oriented bit of content.

salomonk_mur 2y ago

Completely agree. As commented elsewhere, the main driver in true learning is practice. I also wholly reject the idea that this "edutainment" content is useless. Same as spaced repetition, once you see some concepts often enough (which the algorithm guarantees if it knows you are into that topic), you will learn something. I don't consume such content myself, but to dismiss it just looks as rejecting formats different than what you used.

sunrunner 2y ago
> spaced repetition, once you see some concepts often enough I think there's a quote on this but I can't remember by whom, but I think it's something like "Familiarity doesn't lead to repetion, repetition leads to familiarity." Even if not a quote, I think the idea (with spaced repetion adding the concept of time) of repeated exposure to a subject as the thing that drives understanding, and not understanding just being a thing that itself allows people to do the subject a lot, is an important one to keep in mind for learning any new topic, particularly ones that are perhaps further away from your current knowledge base, and so feel inherently trickier. And if you fully comfortable with the subject, you're probably not learning anything at that point ;)
OutOfHere 2y ago
Practice is the boring person's substitute for a diversity of real projects that interesting people work on to strengthen their learning. If you are boring, you can't be helped.

ignoramous 2y ago

> "should be effortful" and "should not be fun" are not opposites Karpathy doesn't really say they are. What he's postulating is that learning must be purposefully effortful. Kind of like playing any sport, say Football / Volleyball. You'll enjoy it, but it isn't without effort.

tim333 2y ago

Thinking of learning skiing rather than academic stuff I think fun is quite a good guide. If it's too easy you don't learn much and kind of get bored, too hard and frustrated or injured but the most fun is a bit challenging where you learn new things but not too hard. I think out instincts may be more evolved for physical skills than academic ones.

zigzag312 2y ago

It's possible to spend a lot of effort, without learning anything. So, effort is not the goal.