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> I’d love an app to that will navigate me between platforms Why would that be needed? I visited NYC the first time as a high school student with not so perfec

> I’d love an app to that will navigate me between platforms Why would that be needed? I visited NYC the first time as a high school student with not so perfect English as a foreign language skills in 1980 when the city was in a pretty rotten state. The last time in 2009 when the subway was at least free of graffiti and generally looked maintained better. In younger years I found huge subway stations and their connecting walkways fascinating so might have planned some trips with extra complicated changes :) I never had the feeling of getting lost although I definitely lost all sense of orientation. It was easy enough to just "blindly" follow the signs. Not sure why an app would be needed, I assume the signs have not disappeared. (In 1980 some connections were still sign-posted as "connection to IMT", ... BRT, or ... IND lines although those had ceased to exist 40 years earlier and where not marked on the official subway map. But even that you could just guess from the "breaks" in the line numbering.)

lelandfe 2y ago
Oh, that’s just the Brooklyn bound train. Where’s the uptown one? Wait, the F is running on the 4? Where is that? This staircase is out of order? Where even is another staircase? This is saying I need to go to Metropolitan. I’m at Lorimer, apparently - wait, is that the same station? Is there an underground path from Grand Central or do I need to exit? What’s the best exit? It’s unusual to see someone try to make the case for the MTA not being complex, “I got lost in the subway” is like a lowest common denominator NYC experience.
- tialaramex 2y ago
  I wouldn't expect it to seem complicated if you're used to other large subway systems. If the only previous subway experience you have is Glasgow (a single circular route) then yeah, New York is potentially intimidating, but I don't expect a Londoner or Parisian would see it as disproportionately complicated. More stations, but not orders of magnitude more. Tokyo too, and New York only has (these days) a single integrated system so no weird ticketing or line change rules.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    In my experience it is absolutely more complicated. Not if all the trains are running normally. The problem is that they often (usually?) aren't. The complexity isn't the map. It's the fact that trains shut down, swap tracks, switch lines, skip stations, end early, etc. I've never seen any other city where you have to stay on top of the constant changes. During weekdays it's not so bad, but nights and weekends yikes.
    - usr1106 2y ago
      Maybe that's easier for a visitor. You make no assumptions how things are supposed to work because you don't know. You just follow the signs and announcements. Of course in case of disruptions/changes that requires that there are temporary signs and announcements. And that announcements are understandable. Earlier the first thing in a new city was getting a paper map. No matter whether free or for purchase. Studying the map prepares you for following signs and announcements. Unfortunately in many cities you cannot get paper maps anymore. A phone screen is 1000 times worse ergonomics to understand a network. Often I print maps before going to a new place.
      - lelandfe 2y ago
        Nah, a phone is pretty indispensable. If you’re waiting for the train at 3am, the only person on the platform, your phone might be the only way for you to know that that countdown clock is lying, and that the subway is down. I would not recommend trying to tackle the MTA with a paper map alone. I wish signage and announcements were as good as you’re hoping
        usr1106 2y ago
        My 5 visits to NYC all happened before smart phones were ubiquitous and I never got lost. Of course the 3 am case might be an exception. I don't think the system has become worse, but the average user has just become more helpless. I recently travelled 2 weeks by train in foreign countries. I did not turn on GPS a single time. It's just a cause and symptom of helplessness if people need that. Yes, I used my phone to make hotel reservations. 20 years ago I did the same using tourist offices, phone books and payphones. But the difference is really marginal. Travelling was not a problem without smart phones.
Scubabear68 2y ago
They specifically mentioned the new Fulton street station. That is effectively a multi level mall and the junction of many train lines to boot. Navigating it for the first time is daunting. Very different from most single-line stations.

lelandfe 2y ago

Oh, that’s just the Brooklyn bound train. Where’s the uptown one? Wait, the F is running on the 4? Where is that? This staircase is out of order? Where even is another staircase? This is saying I need to go to Metropolitan. I’m at Lorimer, apparently - wait, is that the same station? Is there an underground path from Grand Central or do I need to exit? What’s the best exit? It’s unusual to see someone try to make the case for the MTA not being complex, “I got lost in the subway” is like a lowest common denominator NYC experience.

tialaramex 2y ago
I wouldn't expect it to seem complicated if you're used to other large subway systems. If the only previous subway experience you have is Glasgow (a single circular route) then yeah, New York is potentially intimidating, but I don't expect a Londoner or Parisian would see it as disproportionately complicated. More stations, but not orders of magnitude more. Tokyo too, and New York only has (these days) a single integrated system so no weird ticketing or line change rules.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  In my experience it is absolutely more complicated. Not if all the trains are running normally. The problem is that they often (usually?) aren't. The complexity isn't the map. It's the fact that trains shut down, swap tracks, switch lines, skip stations, end early, etc. I've never seen any other city where you have to stay on top of the constant changes. During weekdays it's not so bad, but nights and weekends yikes.
  - usr1106 2y ago
    Maybe that's easier for a visitor. You make no assumptions how things are supposed to work because you don't know. You just follow the signs and announcements. Of course in case of disruptions/changes that requires that there are temporary signs and announcements. And that announcements are understandable. Earlier the first thing in a new city was getting a paper map. No matter whether free or for purchase. Studying the map prepares you for following signs and announcements. Unfortunately in many cities you cannot get paper maps anymore. A phone screen is 1000 times worse ergonomics to understand a network. Often I print maps before going to a new place.
    - lelandfe 2y ago
      Nah, a phone is pretty indispensable. If you’re waiting for the train at 3am, the only person on the platform, your phone might be the only way for you to know that that countdown clock is lying, and that the subway is down. I would not recommend trying to tackle the MTA with a paper map alone. I wish signage and announcements were as good as you’re hoping
      - usr1106 2y ago
        My 5 visits to NYC all happened before smart phones were ubiquitous and I never got lost. Of course the 3 am case might be an exception. I don't think the system has become worse, but the average user has just become more helpless. I recently travelled 2 weeks by train in foreign countries. I did not turn on GPS a single time. It's just a cause and symptom of helplessness if people need that. Yes, I used my phone to make hotel reservations. 20 years ago I did the same using tourist offices, phone books and payphones. But the difference is really marginal. Travelling was not a problem without smart phones.

Scubabear68 2y ago

They specifically mentioned the new Fulton street station. That is effectively a multi level mall and the junction of many train lines to boot. Navigating it for the first time is daunting. Very different from most single-line stations.