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Awesome. I wonder if there’s a way to turn these into actual geographic data. I’d love an app to that will navigate me between platforms at the Fulton St megapl

Awesome. I wonder if there’s a way to turn these into actual geographic data. I’d love an app to that will navigate me between platforms at the Fulton St megaplex.

lelandfe 2y ago
I believe precise subterranean location like that is hard.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  I think there have been attempts to do this with physical beacons that can orient phones nearby, but I would imagine it can be hard to maintain in the harsh operating environment of the subway.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    What I'd be more curious about is being able to trust the beacons. Certainly there is a mechanism where if a phone can get a GNSS/GPS fix, it can then listen for other signals like Wifi and cell towers, and correlate the two: so if GPS isn't available other stuff can heard and used for location. But if there's no GPS, but there are other signals, how can you map the signals to an actual location? You'd have to have someone (Apple? Google?) go in with survey equipment and map the non-GNSS (beacon) signals to locations 'manually' and put them in a database.
    - jpc0 2y ago
      Probably not economically feasible but I don't think technically impossible given analytics from devices. And concidering cell signal is likely covered down there and the locations of cell towers are almost certainly mapped they could use some sort of triangulation to generate a pretty reasonable map even without having ever been there. As I said, I doubt they would put the money into it... Would be a really fun project to build out if you had access to the data though... Maybe don't want to do it because it would make it more common knowledge about how easy it is to track device location even without GPS... I don't think you would need physical beacons, cell towers or fixed wifi APs[1] will likely be good enough and using some statistics would make removing cases where an AP moved/get renamed / goes down temporarily. 1. Access Points
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        Generally speaking, agencies already have to put things like signs, tactile indicators, etc. next to landmarks like stairs and exits in public spaces; so making the accessible thing also a beacon wouldn’t be that much more complicated.
        jpc0 2y ago
        Oh I don't disagree that it isn't easy to do that. It really is. I'm saying it's likely not needed.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      I believe it’s possible to just have the landowner/transit agency install them and publish their locations according to some standards. I believe shopping malls and airports are already mapped this way sometimes.
  - rangestransform 2y ago
    There are BLE beacons for positioning in the big dig tunnels in Boston
usr1106 2y ago
> I’d love an app to that will navigate me between platforms Why would that be needed? I visited NYC the first time as a high school student with not so perfect English as a foreign language skills in 1980 when the city was in a pretty rotten state. The last time in 2009 when the subway was at least free of graffiti and generally looked maintained better. In younger years I found huge subway stations and their connecting walkways fascinating so might have planned some trips with extra complicated changes :) I never had the feeling of getting lost although I definitely lost all sense of orientation. It was easy enough to just "blindly" follow the signs. Not sure why an app would be needed, I assume the signs have not disappeared. (In 1980 some connections were still sign-posted as "connection to IMT", ... BRT, or ... IND lines although those had ceased to exist 40 years earlier and where not marked on the official subway map. But even that you could just guess from the "breaks" in the line numbering.)
- lelandfe 2y ago
  Oh, that’s just the Brooklyn bound train. Where’s the uptown one? Wait, the F is running on the 4? Where is that? This staircase is out of order? Where even is another staircase? This is saying I need to go to Metropolitan. I’m at Lorimer, apparently - wait, is that the same station? Is there an underground path from Grand Central or do I need to exit? What’s the best exit? It’s unusual to see someone try to make the case for the MTA not being complex, “I got lost in the subway” is like a lowest common denominator NYC experience.
  - tialaramex 2y ago
    I wouldn't expect it to seem complicated if you're used to other large subway systems. If the only previous subway experience you have is Glasgow (a single circular route) then yeah, New York is potentially intimidating, but I don't expect a Londoner or Parisian would see it as disproportionately complicated. More stations, but not orders of magnitude more. Tokyo too, and New York only has (these days) a single integrated system so no weird ticketing or line change rules.
    - crazygringo 2y ago

Awesome. I wonder if there’s a way to turn these into actual geographic data. I’d love an app to that will navigate me between platforms at the Fulton St megaplex.

lelandfe 2y ago

I believe precise subterranean location like that is hard.

bobthepanda 2y ago
I think there have been attempts to do this with physical beacons that can orient phones nearby, but I would imagine it can be hard to maintain in the harsh operating environment of the subway.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  What I'd be more curious about is being able to trust the beacons. Certainly there is a mechanism where if a phone can get a GNSS/GPS fix, it can then listen for other signals like Wifi and cell towers, and correlate the two: so if GPS isn't available other stuff can heard and used for location. But if there's no GPS, but there are other signals, how can you map the signals to an actual location? You'd have to have someone (Apple? Google?) go in with survey equipment and map the non-GNSS (beacon) signals to locations 'manually' and put them in a database.
  - jpc0 2y ago
    Probably not economically feasible but I don't think technically impossible given analytics from devices. And concidering cell signal is likely covered down there and the locations of cell towers are almost certainly mapped they could use some sort of triangulation to generate a pretty reasonable map even without having ever been there. As I said, I doubt they would put the money into it... Would be a really fun project to build out if you had access to the data though... Maybe don't want to do it because it would make it more common knowledge about how easy it is to track device location even without GPS... I don't think you would need physical beacons, cell towers or fixed wifi APs[1] will likely be good enough and using some statistics would make removing cases where an AP moved/get renamed / goes down temporarily. 1. Access Points
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      Generally speaking, agencies already have to put things like signs, tactile indicators, etc. next to landmarks like stairs and exits in public spaces; so making the accessible thing also a beacon wouldn’t be that much more complicated.
      - jpc0 2y ago
        Oh I don't disagree that it isn't easy to do that. It really is. I'm saying it's likely not needed.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    I believe it’s possible to just have the landowner/transit agency install them and publish their locations according to some standards. I believe shopping malls and airports are already mapped this way sometimes.
- rangestransform 2y ago
  There are BLE beacons for positioning in the big dig tunnels in Boston

usr1106 2y ago

> I’d love an app to that will navigate me between platforms Why would that be needed? I visited NYC the first time as a high school student with not so perfect English as a foreign language skills in 1980 when the city was in a pretty rotten state. The last time in 2009 when the subway was at least free of graffiti and generally looked maintained better. In younger years I found huge subway stations and their connecting walkways fascinating so might have planned some trips with extra complicated changes :) I never had the feeling of getting lost although I definitely lost all sense of orientation. It was easy enough to just "blindly" follow the signs. Not sure why an app would be needed, I assume the signs have not disappeared. (In 1980 some connections were still sign-posted as "connection to IMT", ... BRT, or ... IND lines although those had ceased to exist 40 years earlier and where not marked on the official subway map. But even that you could just guess from the "breaks" in the line numbering.)

lelandfe 2y ago
Oh, that’s just the Brooklyn bound train. Where’s the uptown one? Wait, the F is running on the 4? Where is that? This staircase is out of order? Where even is another staircase? This is saying I need to go to Metropolitan. I’m at Lorimer, apparently - wait, is that the same station? Is there an underground path from Grand Central or do I need to exit? What’s the best exit? It’s unusual to see someone try to make the case for the MTA not being complex, “I got lost in the subway” is like a lowest common denominator NYC experience.
- tialaramex 2y ago
  I wouldn't expect it to seem complicated if you're used to other large subway systems. If the only previous subway experience you have is Glasgow (a single circular route) then yeah, New York is potentially intimidating, but I don't expect a Londoner or Parisian would see it as disproportionately complicated. More stations, but not orders of magnitude more. Tokyo too, and New York only has (these days) a single integrated system so no weird ticketing or line change rules.
  - crazygringo 2y ago