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This came to mind when I saw the post. I work at an ayahuasca retreat center and these types of things are front and center here. Physical wounds can and do hea

This came to mind when I saw the post. I work at an ayahuasca retreat center and these types of things are front and center here. Physical wounds can and do heal, but traumas ("energetic"/psychological wounds) remain fresh as the day they happened and influence us in immeasurable ways. The effects of ayahuasca often put a spotlight on them and it can be a rough ride until they are fully processed.

Cantinflas 2y ago
Imo treating traumas with ayahuasca is like treating flu with a baseball bat.
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  I think the analogy here would be diagnosis (beyond western-defined ontologies) rather than treatment. Treatment comes later.
- temp0826 2y ago
  It's a different school of thought for sure. We find traditional therapy to be very synergistic with it. Sometimes one can cognitively know how to fix something, but despite that it still sticks in the body. Ayahuasca can help to "percolate" that knowing into the body/nervous system for great results.
  - sirsinsalot 2y ago
    Cite your sources. Just because something feels true doesn't make it so.
    - literalAardvark 2y ago
      Conversely, a good deal of real human knowledge isn't in studies yet.
      - jraph 2y ago
        It's not knowledge then, it's beliefs (which might be true, but we don't know yet)
        literalAardvark 2y ago
        That's entirely untrue. First off, the scientific method only finds things that are less wrong, there's never anything even close to certainty and finality. Your entire life's work could be entirely replaced by an Einstein. Secondly, there's an enormous volume of trade, industry and commercial knowledge that has exactly zero published studies but sufficient less-wrong "scientific" testing to be knowledge. And yet that's how things should be done, based on decades and centuries of craftsmanship, apprenticeships, and corporate knowledge. Your opinion is exactly why I posted what I posted. The scientific method is powerful, but it's extremely slow to propagate.
    - temp0826 2y ago
      I guess a primary source like myself doesn't count for much, but fwiw I have seen hundreds of people go through this. Those that have done a lot of therapy (and have little to no experience with psychedelics) often have a lot of tools they've accumulated over their journeys and tend to get a lot out of it.
      - mathgeek 2y ago
        This is precisely why peer reviewed studies are so valuable and sources so important. Folks can properly value anecdotes (which can be valuable, don’t get me wrong) against other sources of knowledge.
- akira2501 2y ago
  Except the "trauma informed ayahuasca ceremony" is $500 a pop with a minimum of 5 ceremonies. Plus you have to travel outside of the USA. Good cottage industry.
bayindirh 2y ago
> but traumas ("energetic"/psychological wounds) remain fresh as the day they happened and influence us in immeasurable ways. I experienced this in two occasions. First, when I was going to therapy, and somehow managed to reach these traumas, the second is in deep meditation, which Japanese call "meeting with the ghosts". Traumas stay fresh until you face them again, and acknowledge them. The moment you accept that they have happened, you have the chance to heal them. This doesn't mean the process is smooth, painless or easy. It's neither, but it's very possible.
resters 2y ago
Out of curiosity, what time of day and pre-ceremony preparation do you recommend for the retreat?
- temp0826 2y ago
  Our center is run in a traditional (Shipibo) fashion, ceremonies are at night (8p until about 1a). For preparation...it's definitely good to clean up your diet but the only major things to avoid are contraindicated medications; backing off from recreational drugs and alcohol for a bit prior is a good idea too. It's good to stop caffeine just so you aren't withdrawing for a few days while here as well. (Many places are overly strict in terms of this stuff. If you come for a master plant diet, you're getting a vomitivo/purgative at the start to clean you out regardless).
shanusmagnus 2y ago
I'm very curious, from the perspective that you have based on your experience at the retreat, what it means to you when you talk about "processing" these traumas? Maybe a very concrete way to ask would be: what's the difference between someone who undergoes the ayahuasca experience and successfully "processes" a trauma, vs someone who does not? Is there such a thing?
- temp0826 2y ago
  I don't think it can be covered in a general way, everyone's traumas are unique. Sometimes it involves going into the memory, reexperiencing parts of it (which can be a very visceral experience under the effects) from an objective place, really feeling them and letting go, forgiving, etc. It's usually more complicated than that- there are a lot of "hooks" that are created (relationships, places, the emotions felt going in/after an event). The most common traumas (sexual) create some downright awful patterns especially if it happened as a child (e.g. a parent who is supposed to be protecting you and providing safety...but is also doing bad things to you. There's a lot to undo there). It's usually not something taken care of in a single ceremony or even a weekend of ceremonies especially without a skilled practitioner. Is there a difference between this and doing it another way? Hard to say. If the process resonates with you I think it can be done a lot faster and more completely this way. Some people can make little to no progress in therapy for years, dancing around the issue and constantly hitting defense mechanisms (often the memories of these things are blocked out and very hard to access under normal circumstances). A strong ayahuasca experience will put it front and center so you have no other choice than to deal with it. It's not easy, not some magic pill, and takes courage and willingness to go into it head on and do the work. It's absolutely not for everyone. I really love this modality so probably a bit biased- like asking a heart surgeon to heal your broken leg might get you a couple stents installed ;) it's very versatile but not always the best option.
sundarurfriend 2y ago
Reminds me of this [1] SSC post. It briefly talks about a paper [2]: > the paper is trying to explain what psychedelics do to the brain. It theorizes that they weaken high-level priors (in this case, you can think of these as the tendency to fit everything to an existing narrative), allowing things to be seen more as they are > A corollary of relaxing high-level priors or beliefs under psychedelics is that ascending prediction errors from lower levels of the system (that are ordinarily unable to update beliefs due to the top-down suppressive influence of heavily-weighted priors) can find freer register in conscious experience In the context of trauma, the trauma-induced unhealthy belief systems would be the high-level priors that have lodged themselves in strongly, and the effect of the psychedelics would help the person actually process and validate them against real world evidence (beyond the traumatic ones). I can imagine that actually having to do that - seeing all your trauma-based narratives and how they have shaped your view of things, and confronting how they clash with reality - being a pretty rough ride. [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/26/mental-mountains/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/26/mental-mountains/ [2] REBUS And The Anarchic Brain: Toward A Unified Model Of The Brain Action Of Psychedelics
ruthmarx 2y ago
> I work at an ayahuasca retreat center In peru?

Cantinflas 2y ago

Imo treating traumas with ayahuasca is like treating flu with a baseball bat.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago
I think the analogy here would be diagnosis (beyond western-defined ontologies) rather than treatment. Treatment comes later.
temp0826 2y ago
It's a different school of thought for sure. We find traditional therapy to be very synergistic with it. Sometimes one can cognitively know how to fix something, but despite that it still sticks in the body. Ayahuasca can help to "percolate" that knowing into the body/nervous system for great results.
- sirsinsalot 2y ago
  Cite your sources. Just because something feels true doesn't make it so.
  - literalAardvark 2y ago
    Conversely, a good deal of real human knowledge isn't in studies yet.
    - jraph 2y ago
      It's not knowledge then, it's beliefs (which might be true, but we don't know yet)
      - literalAardvark 2y ago
        That's entirely untrue. First off, the scientific method only finds things that are less wrong, there's never anything even close to certainty and finality. Your entire life's work could be entirely replaced by an Einstein. Secondly, there's an enormous volume of trade, industry and commercial knowledge that has exactly zero published studies but sufficient less-wrong "scientific" testing to be knowledge. And yet that's how things should be done, based on decades and centuries of craftsmanship, apprenticeships, and corporate knowledge. Your opinion is exactly why I posted what I posted. The scientific method is powerful, but it's extremely slow to propagate.
  - temp0826 2y ago
    I guess a primary source like myself doesn't count for much, but fwiw I have seen hundreds of people go through this. Those that have done a lot of therapy (and have little to no experience with psychedelics) often have a lot of tools they've accumulated over their journeys and tend to get a lot out of it.
    - mathgeek 2y ago
      This is precisely why peer reviewed studies are so valuable and sources so important. Folks can properly value anecdotes (which can be valuable, don’t get me wrong) against other sources of knowledge.
akira2501 2y ago
Except the "trauma informed ayahuasca ceremony" is $500 a pop with a minimum of 5 ceremonies. Plus you have to travel outside of the USA. Good cottage industry.

bayindirh 2y ago

> but traumas ("energetic"/psychological wounds) remain fresh as the day they happened and influence us in immeasurable ways. I experienced this in two occasions. First, when I was going to therapy, and somehow managed to reach these traumas, the second is in deep meditation, which Japanese call "meeting with the ghosts". Traumas stay fresh until you face them again, and acknowledge them. The moment you accept that they have happened, you have the chance to heal them. This doesn't mean the process is smooth, painless or easy. It's neither, but it's very possible.

resters 2y ago

Out of curiosity, what time of day and pre-ceremony preparation do you recommend for the retreat?

temp0826 2y ago
Our center is run in a traditional (Shipibo) fashion, ceremonies are at night (8p until about 1a). For preparation...it's definitely good to clean up your diet but the only major things to avoid are contraindicated medications; backing off from recreational drugs and alcohol for a bit prior is a good idea too. It's good to stop caffeine just so you aren't withdrawing for a few days while here as well. (Many places are overly strict in terms of this stuff. If you come for a master plant diet, you're getting a vomitivo/purgative at the start to clean you out regardless).

shanusmagnus 2y ago

I'm very curious, from the perspective that you have based on your experience at the retreat, what it means to you when you talk about "processing" these traumas? Maybe a very concrete way to ask would be: what's the difference between someone who undergoes the ayahuasca experience and successfully "processes" a trauma, vs someone who does not? Is there such a thing?

temp0826 2y ago
I don't think it can be covered in a general way, everyone's traumas are unique. Sometimes it involves going into the memory, reexperiencing parts of it (which can be a very visceral experience under the effects) from an objective place, really feeling them and letting go, forgiving, etc. It's usually more complicated than that- there are a lot of "hooks" that are created (relationships, places, the emotions felt going in/after an event). The most common traumas (sexual) create some downright awful patterns especially if it happened as a child (e.g. a parent who is supposed to be protecting you and providing safety...but is also doing bad things to you. There's a lot to undo there). It's usually not something taken care of in a single ceremony or even a weekend of ceremonies especially without a skilled practitioner. Is there a difference between this and doing it another way? Hard to say. If the process resonates with you I think it can be done a lot faster and more completely this way. Some people can make little to no progress in therapy for years, dancing around the issue and constantly hitting defense mechanisms (often the memories of these things are blocked out and very hard to access under normal circumstances). A strong ayahuasca experience will put it front and center so you have no other choice than to deal with it. It's not easy, not some magic pill, and takes courage and willingness to go into it head on and do the work. It's absolutely not for everyone. I really love this modality so probably a bit biased- like asking a heart surgeon to heal your broken leg might get you a couple stents installed ;) it's very versatile but not always the best option.

sundarurfriend 2y ago

Reminds me of this [1] SSC post. It briefly talks about a paper [2]: > the paper is trying to explain what psychedelics do to the brain. It theorizes that they weaken high-level priors (in this case, you can think of these as the tendency to fit everything to an existing narrative), allowing things to be seen more as they are > A corollary of relaxing high-level priors or beliefs under psychedelics is that ascending prediction errors from lower levels of the system (that are ordinarily unable to update beliefs due to the top-down suppressive influence of heavily-weighted priors) can find freer register in conscious experience In the context of trauma, the trauma-induced unhealthy belief systems would be the high-level priors that have lodged themselves in strongly, and the effect of the psychedelics would help the person actually process and validate them against real world evidence (beyond the traumatic ones). I can imagine that actually having to do that - seeing all your trauma-based narratives and how they have shaped your view of things, and confronting how they clash with reality - being a pretty rough ride. [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/26/mental-mountains/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/26/mental-mountains/ [2] REBUS And The Anarchic Brain: Toward A Unified Model Of The Brain Action Of Psychedelics

ruthmarx 2y ago

> I work at an ayahuasca retreat center In peru?