28 ms·

Sure, I can agree with that. I mentioned the incentives welfare programs create and maybe that doesn't play as big a role as I expect for motivating immigrants.

Sure, I can agree with that. I mentioned the incentives welfare programs create and maybe that doesn't play as big a role as I expect for motivating immigrants. It is a structural problem of sorts though, welfare programs and immigration are financially at odds with one another. I don't personally have any problem whatsoever with someone from a poorer country immigrating to the US (not saying that was your argument here) and don't agree with any immigration laws that limit based on wealth. The US wouldn't be what it is today if only the wealthy were ever allowed to immigrate here.

ethbr1 2y ago
Yup! That's the point that gets talked past a lot in the welfare-immigration debate, as each side emphasizes only the facets that buttress their argument. Welfare and immigration must be balanced, to some degree, in that total_production of a country needs to pay for total_welfare. What gets lost is why welfare. I'd say most Democrat would say "Because it's a moral imperative" and most Republicans would say "It's allowing people to be lazy." Imho, both of those may be true to various degrees, but its utility is the prevent the negative consequences of extreme poverty, which also impacts those in extreme poverty's ability to lift themselves out of it and the next generation born into that situation, both of which ultimately impact the economy. So a case of saving/making (future) money by spending (current) money. That said, obviously even the US can't afford to provide welfare for the entire world's population, so there needs to be some cap to the immigration flow (probably much higher than the current legal limits). Although it does fund 1/3 of the UN [0] and is the 2nd largest independent aid funder [1] (via USAID, behind China on an absolute basis, and behind many others on a per-GNI basis). [0] https://www.cfr.org/article/funding-united-nations-what-impact-do-us-contributions-have-un-agencies-and-programs https://www.cfr.org/article/funding-united-nations-what-impa... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_sovereign_state_donors#Development_Assistance_by_DAC_Members https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_sove...
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I wish this was the political debate actually being had. Regardless of what the majority decided on, at least the right debate was hashed out.

ethbr1 2y ago

Yup! That's the point that gets talked past a lot in the welfare-immigration debate, as each side emphasizes only the facets that buttress their argument. Welfare and immigration must be balanced, to some degree, in that total_production of a country needs to pay for total_welfare. What gets lost is why welfare. I'd say most Democrat would say "Because it's a moral imperative" and most Republicans would say "It's allowing people to be lazy." Imho, both of those may be true to various degrees, but its utility is the prevent the negative consequences of extreme poverty, which also impacts those in extreme poverty's ability to lift themselves out of it and the next generation born into that situation, both of which ultimately impact the economy. So a case of saving/making (future) money by spending (current) money. That said, obviously even the US can't afford to provide welfare for the entire world's population, so there needs to be some cap to the immigration flow (probably much higher than the current legal limits). Although it does fund 1/3 of the UN [0] and is the 2nd largest independent aid funder [1] (via USAID, behind China on an absolute basis, and behind many others on a per-GNI basis). [0] https://www.cfr.org/article/funding-united-nations-what-impact-do-us-contributions-have-un-agencies-and-programs https://www.cfr.org/article/funding-united-nations-what-impa... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_sovereign_state_donors#Development_Assistance_by_DAC_Members https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_sove...

_heimdall 2y ago
I wish this was the political debate actually being had. Regardless of what the majority decided on, at least the right debate was hashed out.