9 ms·

Notes on Guyana

210 points by impish9208 2y ago

profsummergig 2y ago
Some things I was shocked to learn when I first learned these a couple decades ago (from a Guyanese girl I was seeing in the U.S.): - Guayana and nearby places were British colonies. - there's a vast Indian (i.e. descended from India) population in Guyana and nearby places brought over by the British as "indentured workers" (for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British) in sugarcane plantations. (Interesting to me because I'm from India). - Guyana speaks English. - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. There are also countries that mainly speak French. - Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S. though they are "Anglo". In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick and choose what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity, as it suits them. - My favorite Salsa dance teacher in the U.S. has the last name "Persaud" and looks "Latino". Took me about 15 years to realize he was of Indian stock (though might be mixed with Latino). - if Guyana had lower crime, and a well-organized economy, I'd move there in a heartbeat. They speak English, have good weather, and have massive oil deposits.
- ks2048 2y ago
  > Guyana speaks English. The article says “My major historical sources include a 1992 US Military-commissioned study of Guyana and Belize. No, I have no idea why they lumped those two countries together” This seems to be the connection: only mainland countries south of USA primarily English speaking. (Of course both related to British colonialism)
- Rygian 2y ago
  When you say good weather, where would you place Guyana in this map? https://xkcd.com/1916/ https://xkcd.com/1916/
  - profsummergig 2y ago
    Thanks for the link. I'm keeping it for future reference. My ideal weather is "slightly warm and slightly humid" all the time. Alas, I live in a place where we have 7 months of winter each year. One day....
  - deleted 2y ago
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- neves 2y ago
  Its neighbor, French Guyana is French territory. Thanks to that, Brazil is the country with the largest border to France.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Equatorial launch site for French space program.
  - sorokod 2y ago
    Pushed my favourite geography trick question of "what is the tallest mountain in Europe" to second place.
  - lunchmeat317 2y ago
    Technically, Guyana's neighbor is Suriname to the East, not French Guiana - there isn't a shared border.
    - neves 2y ago
      sure, I always mix the positioning of the orignal Guyanas (Suriname as called Dutch Guyana)
- pkd 2y ago
  One additional bit of context on the Indian indentured labour is that crossing the seas was considered a great taboo among Hindus, leading to a loss of your "caste" because you had lost contact with the holy land. So only the very desperate and destitute were willing to take this deal. Or the adventurous. The British Cellular Jail on the Andaman Islands were considered double jeopardy because of this as well.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Does this apply today to construction workers in the Middle East, whose families remain in SE Asia?
    - aatharuv 2y ago
      That taboo is long since gone (I'm assuming you're talking about South Asia, though).
- jcranmer 2y ago
  > - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. There are also countries that mainly speak French. "Latin America" has multiple definitions. Most of those definitions do exclude English-speaking Belize and Guyana (and Dutch-speaking Suriname).
  - profsummergig 2y ago
    Ah yes, Dutch too! Imagine explaining this to middle-America.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    "Latin America" is an US-American invention. It is all America. The US is just one of the American countries (and culture, which is very similar to the other American countries but rich).
    - lentil_soup 2y ago
      Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term "Latino" is, though. Latin America is just a term for the countries in America colonised by romance language countries. As the sibling comment says the exact definition varies, but wouldn't say it's a US invention. What you say about the US just being one of the American countries is correct, and it's often a source of confusion (intended or not)
      - meiraleal 2y ago
        > Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term "Latino" is, though You are right. But also the term Latino "creates" Latin America, which are the countries Latinos come from. And then also a subculture of immigrants in the US, which funnily is a bit excluding of Brazilians as not real Latinos (as there is also a expectation that everybody below the US speaks Spanish).
        foogazi 2y ago
        > You are right. You should have stopped right there. Latino is a US term to refer to people in the US by their origin. Outside of the US people use Latinoamérica to refer to the central and South American former colonies of France, Portugal and Spain. Iberoamérica is used too if you want to be more specific and exclude the French colonies
- stonesthrowaway 2y ago
  > for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British The same goes for chinese, japanese and filipino "slaves". In official capacity, they may not have been called slaves, but unofficially, they were. There are old portguese books that claimed japanese made the best slaves. And there was a british viceroy who claimed indians made the best slaves. > Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S. Maybe in official documents but certainly not in everyday life. Guyanese are considered and treated like indians or 'hindus' and they themselves view themselves as indians, not hispanic.
- deleted 2y ago
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- foogazi 2y ago
  > In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick and choose what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity, as it suits them. I thought everyone could do this
- wslh 2y ago
  > - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. Which one?
  - teractiveodular 2y ago
    Guyana and Belize.
    - wslh 2y ago
      Latin Americans don't associate Guyana and Belize as Latin America, beyond the proximity. Latin Americans are associated with Spanish and Portuguese mainly (romance languages). Also, the colonization by Spain and Portugal. Guyana and Belize are associated specifically with the Caribbean area.
      - teractiveodular 2y ago
        That's why the original says "Latin" in quotes, but geographically they're in Central/South America and, as this discussion has illustrated, that means "Latin" as far as most Americans are concerned.
    - thread_id 2y ago
      Caribbean countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean
- deleted 2y ago
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- petesergeant 2y ago
  > for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British An indentured worker and a slave are not the same thing. While one would prefer to be neither of those things, generally the former voluntarily entered into the arrangement (or in lieu of prison), were bound for a fixed term, weren't considered property, and had at least some legal recourse. Were some indentured workers de-facto slaves? Almost certainly. That doesn't mean they were the same thing though.
- Affric 2y ago
  Indentured labour was done by contract for a fixed period, and they were paid. For people who believe that there was workers who got on the ships through their own agency this is important. This undoubtedly happened along with those who were compelled or deceived. Frankly, I think the reason that it is not more often referred to as slavery is because it wasn’t officially referred to as such contemporaneously. But there is legitimate debate around the differences between Indian indentured servitude and slavery.
  - shazzy 2y ago
    To add to this, Indians could choose to return back home to India after their contract was over. Of course lots decided to stay, but some did return.
  - thread_id 2y ago
    Thank you making note of this. The Guyanese I know have an oral history of being decieved and compelled. They were tricked into getting on board a boat and once there not allowed to leave. They were heart broken that their families did not know what happened to them. The return to India was offered later as reparation. But by then they had built entire lives and had new families of their own. The British did not call it slavery because slavery was outlawed by this time. The author's heavy reliance on a historical narative authored by the U.S. military probably contributed to the rather sanitized recounting of the role Britain had in imigrating 286,000 Indians to Guyana. I am curious to know if anyone else here shares this history in their family.
- broken-kebab 2y ago
  >for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British I suppose it's because they weren't. It's sort of fashionable to compare hard conditions to slavery in many fields, but back in those times the difference would be obvious.
ks2048 2y ago
> GDP growth rate (2022) – 63.4% (not a typo) Wow
- letitgo12345 2y ago
  They found tons of oil
- grotorea 2y ago
  Struck black gold, complete with neighbour envy
MichaelZuo 2y ago
I’ve always heard intimations that Guyana was worse than French Guyana or Suriname as a tourist destination, but yeah this seems really surprisingly bad as a tourist destination…
- walterbell 2y ago
  1989, poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, https://www.stabroeknews.com/2016/12/02/features/30-years-of-stabroek-news/guyana-now-ranked-haiti/ https://www.stabroeknews.com/2016/12/02/features/30-years-of...
- frankdenbow 2y ago
  Lots of beautiful spots to see in the interior, Kaiteur is the highest single drop waterfall in the world. Baganara Island is a good vacation spot. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  Considering that the author is doing a blog series on visiting some of the more out-of-the-way places, I spent most of the piece wondering when he'd stop talking about the history and actually go on about the things he saw. When that list amounts to "I booked it to the next country because I exhausted everything worth doing in a day", coming from someone who tries hard to do interesting stuff well off the beaten path... it really sounds like the only reason to go to that country is to check it off the list of the countries to visit. Yikes.
  - keybored 2y ago
    You can’t expect much from a country which consists of a small populated coastal strip and the rest (the interior) being the Amazon. Or at least that’s the kind of destination where you have to make more plans before travelling than asking the natives what to do once you’ve arrived.
- SamPatt 2y ago
  I follow a few popular travellers on YouTube and they had almost identical experiences. Here's hoping their new oil wealth will improve their infrastructure and reduce crime.
colesantiago 2y ago
Interesting, what are the opportunities to make money from Guyana, it is understood that they have lots of oil and they have the fastest growing GDP of any country. Any ideas?
- walterbell 2y ago
  Exxon & Chevron. https://www.guyanastandard.com/2023/10/23/guyana-to-see-new-face-in-stabroek-block-consortium-as-chevron-agrees-to-buy-out-hess/ https://www.guyanastandard.com/2023/10/23/guyana-to-see-new-... https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/hess-guyanas-secret-value-becomes-part-exxon-arbitration-sources-say-2024-08-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/hess-guyanas-secret-...
- profsummergig 2y ago
  For some reason the current leader of Guyana (who has a muslim name) hangs out a lot with India's Modi (who is an open islamophobe). A strange set of bedfellows. Theory is that 1) Guyana needs to wage war with Venezuela over oil-rich disputed territory [1], and 2) Guyana wants to build a lot of infrastructure. Might be opportunities there. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_territorial_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_terri...
  - kylehotchkiss 2y ago
    How did Ghana get pulled into this?
    - deleted 2y ago
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    - profsummergig 2y ago
      Oops, typos. Corrected. Thanks.
  - unmole 2y ago
    > India's Modi (who is an open islamophobe Someone should tell the Emiratis and Saudis. They keep hanging out with him and signing deals.
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sdlkj- 2y ago
Being Guyanese in tech is an interesting experience. FWIW I have yet to meet another Guyanese person at work. In every workplace I go to the experience is similar - initially the south asian folks approach me, but then once they realize we're not that culturally similar I end up in a sort of limbo. Not to say that folks aren't welcoming, but every large company ends up having sort of cultural cliques, and I never seem to fit into any of them. Curious if there are any other Guyanese folks out there who're willing to share their experience.
- profsummergig 2y ago
  Indian here. I've never fit in any of the traditional Indian cliques. Such a blessing! At the end of the day, you're going to lose your individuality over the group or sub-group you're identifying with. And you're going to be pulled into their politics and drama. Read Naval's thoughts on the importance of solitude and dis-identification with any group, in order to be able to become the individual you are meant to be. And thank your stars that none of the traditional Indian cliques wants you.
  - sdlkj- 2y ago
    Hah, appreciate the response. Being able to stay out the drama is nice - though I do find my self sometimes craving the support structures and sense of belonging that these cliques provide. Especially when at work all I hear around me is Mandarin or Hindi, in the hallways, at lunch, essentially in any context except full-on work meetings where it almost feels like they're _forced_ to speak English for me.
    - profsummergig 2y ago
      My 0.02 cents on this issue: it is terribly rude to speak Mandarin or Hindi, when in a mixed group setting at work, in the USA. Be happy you didn't become one of these rude people. Support structures... I get it. It does help to have a sort of extended-family sometimes. Here's what I've found helpful: get into an activity where such support structures organically form. And you can have the support structure without attendant ethno-centric drama and politics. There are also downsides to being in these ethnocentric cliques. Know the crabs in a bucket effect, and the saying about how you can't become a prophet in your own town. There's a strong anchoring effect your own people have regarding you. When they see you rising up, they wonder why you're succeeding and they're not, and try to drag you down (instead of celebrating your rise). There's a strong hierarchy within these cliques, and you're not supposed to break-out of your "correct position" in the hierarchy. Also, if it helps to know this: I have relatives who are thick in the middle of their Indian cliques. What do they do when they're not with their clique-members? Trash-talk about them.
walterbell 2y ago
2023 oil earnings by Guyana: $30 billion GYD 2023 oil company (Exxon, Chevron, China National) profits from Guyana: $1.3 trillion GYD https://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/2024/10/15/exxon-says-dont-compare-guyanas-contract-terms-with-those-of-suriname/ https://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/2024/10/15/exxon-says-don... > Exxon is the operator of the Stabroek Block, with 45% interest, Hess Guyana Exploration Ltd. holds 30% interest and China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) Petroleum Guyana Limited holds 25% interest. Last year, the three companies earned $1.3 trillion in profits – entirely tax-free in Guyana.. the Stabroek Block partners are allowed to recover 75% of the oil produced to recover their investment costs, the remaining 25% is considered profit, which is split between Guyana and the Stabroek Block consortium, giving each 12.5%. > However, the consortium pays a 2% royalty from its share to Guyana. From its 14.5% Guyana then has to pay taxes for the oil companies... for 2023, the Government of Guyana (GoG) had to pay the combined sum of $306 billion in income taxes for ExxonMobil Guyana Limited and its Stabroek Block partners, Hess and CNOOC according to the companies’ audited financial statements, while for the same period Guyana earned $336 billion from its oil.
- profsummergig 2y ago
  Unsustainable. Things will probably change after enough Guyanese find out.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
    Change how? Like they changed in Venezuela? Venezuela nationalized oil production in 71, it collapsed 50% within a few years, briefly rebounded, and is currently down almost 90%. That didn't work out for Venezuela.
    - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
      Well they're no longer beholden to american corporations. That's a massive win; the market will 100% swing back in their favor eventually.
      - 2y ago
smallerfish 2y ago
If you like travelogues, Wild Coast by John Gimlette is a great read. And, Alex Rothman, youtuber, used Gimlette as a source for (well produced!) videos he made both about Sri Lanka and Guyana. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mszCGt830 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mszCGt830
dividendpayee 2y ago
This reminds me of another blog I enjoyed -- there's a link shortener called https://y.gy https://y.gy, and .gy is the Guayanese TLD. Venezuela was invading Guyana, so the y.gy owner wrote a whole essay about what it would mean for the .gy domain if Venezuela seizes their physical domain admin infrastructure. Crazy stuff. https://app.y.gy/blog/guyana-war https://app.y.gy/blog/guyana-war
- meiraleal 2y ago
  > Venezuela was invading Guyana Venezuela was threatening to invade Guyana*
iask 2y ago
Guyana is considered part of the Caribbean because they speak 100% English…well creole English (broken English) to be precise. Just like American Indians, the natives there are called Amerindian. There’s also a huge Dutch history…dating back to the 1600 if I remember correctly. WOW! It’s amazing to see Guyana mentioned on HN. If you rally want to know Guyanese, get invited to one of our parties. Fun and down-to-earth folks…well most, some can definitely carry a massive ego seed. If you haven’t met anyone in tech - greetings! A pleasure to meet you. 20 years building successful companies and products in the USA. Wakenaam - Dutch - “Waiting for a name”.
- foogazi 2y ago
  > There’s also a huge Dutch history I thought Suriname was the Dutch Guyana
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    Currently. Guyana was also owned by the Dutch a few hundred years ago.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  > creole English (broken English) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyanese_Creole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyanese_Creole Side note: creoles are accepted as version of French/English etc. that evolved on a different timeline while getting heavy influences from the local languages. For a while it was common to call them "broken" or "bastardized" [0], in language circles that's pretty much a thing of the past I'd say. Same way we don't call French broken Latin. [0] https://guyanachronicle.com/2013/10/13/the-rich-cultural-expression-of-guyanese-creolese/ https://guyanachronicle.com/2013/10/13/the-rich-cultural-exp...
- safety1st 2y ago
  The map of Guyana at the top of this article listed a location called Kamuda Village, and I thought that sounded interesting, so I checked it out on Google Search and Google Maps. There's basically nothing about it on the English Internet. A point exists on Google Maps and some auto-generated SEO spam pages exist probably for that reason. There are no photos of the location, the terrain view just shows trees. No roads nearby. It's a few hundred meters from the marginally better documented Kukui River. The Internet has a video of some kids at another part of this river who take a raft across it every day to get to school. It looks like there are lots of places in Guyana like this. Inhabited but undocumented, at least on the public Internet. It's fascinating to me that in an era where you just assume everything is online, there's so much of the world that still isn't.
wslh 2y ago
Could someone who is more English fluent clarify this statement? > (including individuals of the male, female, black, Indian, white, Chinese, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, and Jewish persuasion) What "persuasion" means in this context? > ...Janet Rosenberg, who to my knowledge is the only Jewish female head-of-government (and later state) in history outside of Israel (and more recently, Mexico). There is one more, see: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Dreifuss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Dreifuss>.
- dcminter 2y ago
  > What "persuasion" means in this context? "Of the ... persuasion" is a slightly fancy way of saying "who are ..."
- munificent 2y ago
  In this context, "persuasion" is an idiom just means something like "background" "has this attribute". It doesn't have anything to do with the typical meaning of "persuade" because English is weird.
  - marssaxman 2y ago
    In older writing, one would have used the phrase literally, to describe someone's religious or political affiliation: beliefs one could have been "persuaded" to adopt. One might refer to a preacher "of the Methodist persuasion", say. The modern usage of the idiom came about as a joke - as though someone's sex or ethnic heritage were merely a matter of preference. Over time, the original sense has been forgotten, and the humor has been lost through repetition, so it is now just an odd phrase.
    - embedded_hiker 2y ago
      The US TV show "All in the Family" in the early 70s included the character Archie Bunker, who was an outspoken bigot. This might have been the origin of using "the Oriental persuasion" as a joke. My parents thought it was hilarious, and explained the joke to me. Yes, since then, that usage has leaked from being humor to being used in the sense above.
wslh 2y ago
I wonder, what relatively affordable flights you can get to Guyana? For example, I cannot find flights from São Paulo or Rio de Janeiro.
- sdlkj- 2y ago
  That is surprising - considering how close they are. I've always ended up flying out of New York or Toronto, at what I'd consider reasonable prices. I suspect it's because of the sizable expat/2nd/3rd gen population in the northeast.
  - teractiveodular 2y ago
    Flights are scheduled based on demand, not proximity. There are many Caribbean islands that are so close you can see them from each other on a good day, but the fastest way to travel between them is via Miami.
kgbcia 2y ago
Good read, sent it to my Kindle. It was the CIA who messed up that country in the modern era. Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth. Hope they don't ruin the Amazon rainforest nearby. Hope the racial tensions ease down and infrastructure is built up, so I can visit one day.
- blackhawkC17 2y ago
  > Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth. Guyana has weak political institutions and high corruption & tribalism. It’s more likely to become a poor resource-cursed nation than a successful one. I truly hope this isn’t the case, but if history teaches us a lesson..
  - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
    What country on earth is strong on protection from corruption and tribalism? Point out the country and I'll point out the nature of the above.
    - blackhawkC17 2y ago
      No country is 100% immune to it. But some countries have developed systems to tame the effects as much as possible. Examples are most of Western Europe, the U.S., and Canada. There’s a clear correlation between low corruption and high economic development.
      - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
        I can't speak to western europe, but the clear devotion the US and Canada have to capital makes this difficult to buy as a general difference. I suspect the distinction in corruption between the west and the rest of the world must come from a working person's perspective. And I would love to hear from any non-westerners here as I suspect it's impossible to get a meaningful evaluation from the west.
        2y ago
fracus 2y ago
I would have bet a lot of money that Guyana was a country somewhere in Africa. I'm so surprised to find out it is South America. The article was a good read.
- siriaan 2y ago
  Just like Andorra - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q_iqrvnC_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q_iqrvnC_4
- walterbell 2y ago
  At one time, partnered with North Korea! https://apjjf.org/2015/13/4/Moe-Taylor/4258 https://apjjf.org/2015/13/4/Moe-Taylor/4258 > Mass Games in North Korea.. are without comparison the largest choreographed performance in the world.. There are three central components.. gymnastics, music, and the panoramic backdrop.. The backdrop is created through tens of thousands of children aligned in one side of the stadium seats holding books of illustrated cards positioned contiguously with each other to give the illusion of an imperforate surface; by changing the pages of the book in precisely coordinated unison following the signals of a conductor, the backdrop image is transformed throughout the performance.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Guinea, Guyana, and Ghana… are hard to keep straight. 2/3 in Africa. Add French, New, and Papua combos and no wonder.
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  Guyana: South America French Guiana: South America Guinea: Africa Guinea-Bissau: Africa Equatorial Guinea: Africa Papua New Guinea: Asia Bonus fun fact: the guinea pig is from Peru and has no known connection to any of these.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    More spelling fun, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana
kibwen 2y ago
What an unexpectedly spellbinding historical read.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > What an unexpectedly spellbinding historical read. Spellbinding ? More like propaganda. Historical ? "When the first spanish settler". One can tell the nationality of the author from those.
robjwells 2y ago
Comparing Jagan and Burnham to (respectively) Trotsky and Stalin is extremely strange. Jagan was perceived as a threat to British interests in Guyana, Burnham was deemed acceptable if unreliable. Britain sent warships and 700 troops to oust Jagan in 1953, suspending the constitution, and later worked (with the US) to ensure Jagan could not reach the top job again. To be clear, Jagan’s PPP had won 75% of the seats in a democratic election. An AP report on declassified MI5 documents about the 1953 coup: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/26/mi5-files-coup-british-guiana https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/26/mi5-files-coup... A good summary of the post-'53 machinations by historian Mark Curtis: https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-sooner-we-get-these-people-out-of-our-hair-the-better/ https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-sooner-we-get-these-peopl...
HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
Interesting. A few comments. The Banks billboard brought back memories. My mom used to work in the computer department (or whatever they called their IT center) at Banks D.I.H. when I was a kid. I remember playing with used punch cards and having bags of confetti from the punched out chads. The slavery discussion brought out a LOL because it was almost exactly what I was taught as a Guyanese schoolkid in the 70's. Especially the part about the Amerindians basically saying, "fuck this shit" and disappearing back into the jungle. Having lived in the US for over 40 years, I have essentially no connection to the country of my birth any longer (technically I was born in British Guiana, but whatever), so it was interesting to see how it's changed from what I remember. Captions on the photos would have been nice though.
keybored 2y ago
> Currently, Indians have the highest median income of any ethnic group in the United States. While there are cultural contributors to this trend, it’s probably mostly a result of an extremely powerful selection effect wherein only the very economically best and brightest out of the 1.4 billion people in India manage to immigrate to the US. "economically best and brightest". That’s a google search that only shows this article. Now consider the caste makeup. Two thumbs up from the author to the caste system I guess.
sghiassy 2y ago
From an economic perspective and Guyana’s new found wealth, it’s important to understand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
adoniesflorence 2y ago
[dead]

210 points by impish9208 2y ago

Some things I was shocked to learn when I first learned these a couple decades ago (from a Guyanese girl I was seeing in the U.S.): - Guayana and nearby places were British colonies. - there's a vast Indian (i.e. descended from India) population in Guyana and nearby places brought over by the British as "indentured workers" (for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British) in sugarcane plantations. (Interesting to me because I'm from India). - Guyana speaks English. - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. There are also countries that mainly speak French. - Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S. though they are "Anglo". In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick and choose what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity, as it suits them. - My favorite Salsa dance teacher in the U.S. has the last name "Persaud" and looks "Latino". Took me about 15 years to realize he was of Indian stock (though might be mixed with Latino). - if Guyana had lower crime, and a well-organized economy, I'd move there in a heartbeat. They speak English, have good weather, and have massive oil deposits.

ks2048 2y ago
> Guyana speaks English. The article says “My major historical sources include a 1992 US Military-commissioned study of Guyana and Belize. No, I have no idea why they lumped those two countries together” This seems to be the connection: only mainland countries south of USA primarily English speaking. (Of course both related to British colonialism)
Rygian 2y ago
When you say good weather, where would you place Guyana in this map? https://xkcd.com/1916/ https://xkcd.com/1916/
- profsummergig 2y ago
  Thanks for the link. I'm keeping it for future reference. My ideal weather is "slightly warm and slightly humid" all the time. Alas, I live in a place where we have 7 months of winter each year. One day....
- deleted 2y ago
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neves 2y ago
Its neighbor, French Guyana is French territory. Thanks to that, Brazil is the country with the largest border to France.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Equatorial launch site for French space program.
- sorokod 2y ago
  Pushed my favourite geography trick question of "what is the tallest mountain in Europe" to second place.
- lunchmeat317 2y ago
  Technically, Guyana's neighbor is Suriname to the East, not French Guiana - there isn't a shared border.
  - neves 2y ago
    sure, I always mix the positioning of the orignal Guyanas (Suriname as called Dutch Guyana)
pkd 2y ago
One additional bit of context on the Indian indentured labour is that crossing the seas was considered a great taboo among Hindus, leading to a loss of your "caste" because you had lost contact with the holy land. So only the very desperate and destitute were willing to take this deal. Or the adventurous. The British Cellular Jail on the Andaman Islands were considered double jeopardy because of this as well.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Does this apply today to construction workers in the Middle East, whose families remain in SE Asia?
  - aatharuv 2y ago
    That taboo is long since gone (I'm assuming you're talking about South Asia, though).
jcranmer 2y ago
> - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. There are also countries that mainly speak French. "Latin America" has multiple definitions. Most of those definitions do exclude English-speaking Belize and Guyana (and Dutch-speaking Suriname).
- profsummergig 2y ago
  Ah yes, Dutch too! Imagine explaining this to middle-America.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  "Latin America" is an US-American invention. It is all America. The US is just one of the American countries (and culture, which is very similar to the other American countries but rich).
  - lentil_soup 2y ago
    Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term "Latino" is, though. Latin America is just a term for the countries in America colonised by romance language countries. As the sibling comment says the exact definition varies, but wouldn't say it's a US invention. What you say about the US just being one of the American countries is correct, and it's often a source of confusion (intended or not)
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      > Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term "Latino" is, though You are right. But also the term Latino "creates" Latin America, which are the countries Latinos come from. And then also a subculture of immigrants in the US, which funnily is a bit excluding of Brazilians as not real Latinos (as there is also a expectation that everybody below the US speaks Spanish).
      - foogazi 2y ago
        > You are right. You should have stopped right there. Latino is a US term to refer to people in the US by their origin. Outside of the US people use Latinoamérica to refer to the central and South American former colonies of France, Portugal and Spain. Iberoamérica is used too if you want to be more specific and exclude the French colonies
stonesthrowaway 2y ago
> for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British The same goes for chinese, japanese and filipino "slaves". In official capacity, they may not have been called slaves, but unofficially, they were. There are old portguese books that claimed japanese made the best slaves. And there was a british viceroy who claimed indians made the best slaves. > Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S. Maybe in official documents but certainly not in everyday life. Guyanese are considered and treated like indians or 'hindus' and they themselves view themselves as indians, not hispanic.
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foogazi 2y ago
> In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick and choose what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity, as it suits them. I thought everyone could do this
wslh 2y ago
> - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. Which one?
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  Guyana and Belize.
  - wslh 2y ago
    Latin Americans don't associate Guyana and Belize as Latin America, beyond the proximity. Latin Americans are associated with Spanish and Portuguese mainly (romance languages). Also, the colonization by Spain and Portugal. Guyana and Belize are associated specifically with the Caribbean area.
    - teractiveodular 2y ago
      That's why the original says "Latin" in quotes, but geographically they're in Central/South America and, as this discussion has illustrated, that means "Latin" as far as most Americans are concerned.
  - thread_id 2y ago
    Caribbean countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean
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petesergeant 2y ago
> for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British An indentured worker and a slave are not the same thing. While one would prefer to be neither of those things, generally the former voluntarily entered into the arrangement (or in lieu of prison), were bound for a fixed term, weren't considered property, and had at least some legal recourse. Were some indentured workers de-facto slaves? Almost certainly. That doesn't mean they were the same thing though.
Affric 2y ago
Indentured labour was done by contract for a fixed period, and they were paid. For people who believe that there was workers who got on the ships through their own agency this is important. This undoubtedly happened along with those who were compelled or deceived. Frankly, I think the reason that it is not more often referred to as slavery is because it wasn’t officially referred to as such contemporaneously. But there is legitimate debate around the differences between Indian indentured servitude and slavery.
- shazzy 2y ago
  To add to this, Indians could choose to return back home to India after their contract was over. Of course lots decided to stay, but some did return.
- thread_id 2y ago
  Thank you making note of this. The Guyanese I know have an oral history of being decieved and compelled. They were tricked into getting on board a boat and once there not allowed to leave. They were heart broken that their families did not know what happened to them. The return to India was offered later as reparation. But by then they had built entire lives and had new families of their own. The British did not call it slavery because slavery was outlawed by this time. The author's heavy reliance on a historical narative authored by the U.S. military probably contributed to the rather sanitized recounting of the role Britain had in imigrating 286,000 Indians to Guyana. I am curious to know if anyone else here shares this history in their family.
broken-kebab 2y ago
>for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British I suppose it's because they weren't. It's sort of fashionable to compare hard conditions to slavery in many fields, but back in those times the difference would be obvious.

ks2048 2y ago

> GDP growth rate (2022) – 63.4% (not a typo) Wow

letitgo12345 2y ago
They found tons of oil
grotorea 2y ago
Struck black gold, complete with neighbour envy

MichaelZuo 2y ago

I’ve always heard intimations that Guyana was worse than French Guyana or Suriname as a tourist destination, but yeah this seems really surprisingly bad as a tourist destination…

walterbell 2y ago
1989, poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, https://www.stabroeknews.com/2016/12/02/features/30-years-of-stabroek-news/guyana-now-ranked-haiti/ https://www.stabroeknews.com/2016/12/02/features/30-years-of...
frankdenbow 2y ago
Lots of beautiful spots to see in the interior, Kaiteur is the highest single drop waterfall in the world. Baganara Island is a good vacation spot. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
jcranmer 2y ago
Considering that the author is doing a blog series on visiting some of the more out-of-the-way places, I spent most of the piece wondering when he'd stop talking about the history and actually go on about the things he saw. When that list amounts to "I booked it to the next country because I exhausted everything worth doing in a day", coming from someone who tries hard to do interesting stuff well off the beaten path... it really sounds like the only reason to go to that country is to check it off the list of the countries to visit. Yikes.
- keybored 2y ago
  You can’t expect much from a country which consists of a small populated coastal strip and the rest (the interior) being the Amazon. Or at least that’s the kind of destination where you have to make more plans before travelling than asking the natives what to do once you’ve arrived.
SamPatt 2y ago
I follow a few popular travellers on YouTube and they had almost identical experiences. Here's hoping their new oil wealth will improve their infrastructure and reduce crime.

colesantiago 2y ago

Interesting, what are the opportunities to make money from Guyana, it is understood that they have lots of oil and they have the fastest growing GDP of any country. Any ideas?

walterbell 2y ago
Exxon & Chevron. https://www.guyanastandard.com/2023/10/23/guyana-to-see-new-face-in-stabroek-block-consortium-as-chevron-agrees-to-buy-out-hess/ https://www.guyanastandard.com/2023/10/23/guyana-to-see-new-... https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/hess-guyanas-secret-value-becomes-part-exxon-arbitration-sources-say-2024-08-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/hess-guyanas-secret-...
profsummergig 2y ago
For some reason the current leader of Guyana (who has a muslim name) hangs out a lot with India's Modi (who is an open islamophobe). A strange set of bedfellows. Theory is that 1) Guyana needs to wage war with Venezuela over oil-rich disputed territory [1], and 2) Guyana wants to build a lot of infrastructure. Might be opportunities there. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_territorial_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_terri...
- kylehotchkiss 2y ago
  How did Ghana get pulled into this?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - profsummergig 2y ago
    Oops, typos. Corrected. Thanks.
- unmole 2y ago
  > India's Modi (who is an open islamophobe Someone should tell the Emiratis and Saudis. They keep hanging out with him and signing deals.

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sdlkj- 2y ago

Being Guyanese in tech is an interesting experience. FWIW I have yet to meet another Guyanese person at work. In every workplace I go to the experience is similar - initially the south asian folks approach me, but then once they realize we're not that culturally similar I end up in a sort of limbo. Not to say that folks aren't welcoming, but every large company ends up having sort of cultural cliques, and I never seem to fit into any of them. Curious if there are any other Guyanese folks out there who're willing to share their experience.

profsummergig 2y ago
Indian here. I've never fit in any of the traditional Indian cliques. Such a blessing! At the end of the day, you're going to lose your individuality over the group or sub-group you're identifying with. And you're going to be pulled into their politics and drama. Read Naval's thoughts on the importance of solitude and dis-identification with any group, in order to be able to become the individual you are meant to be. And thank your stars that none of the traditional Indian cliques wants you.
- sdlkj- 2y ago
  Hah, appreciate the response. Being able to stay out the drama is nice - though I do find my self sometimes craving the support structures and sense of belonging that these cliques provide. Especially when at work all I hear around me is Mandarin or Hindi, in the hallways, at lunch, essentially in any context except full-on work meetings where it almost feels like they're _forced_ to speak English for me.
  - profsummergig 2y ago
    My 0.02 cents on this issue: it is terribly rude to speak Mandarin or Hindi, when in a mixed group setting at work, in the USA. Be happy you didn't become one of these rude people. Support structures... I get it. It does help to have a sort of extended-family sometimes. Here's what I've found helpful: get into an activity where such support structures organically form. And you can have the support structure without attendant ethno-centric drama and politics. There are also downsides to being in these ethnocentric cliques. Know the crabs in a bucket effect, and the saying about how you can't become a prophet in your own town. There's a strong anchoring effect your own people have regarding you. When they see you rising up, they wonder why you're succeeding and they're not, and try to drag you down (instead of celebrating your rise). There's a strong hierarchy within these cliques, and you're not supposed to break-out of your "correct position" in the hierarchy. Also, if it helps to know this: I have relatives who are thick in the middle of their Indian cliques. What do they do when they're not with their clique-members? Trash-talk about them.

walterbell 2y ago

2023 oil earnings by Guyana: $30 billion GYD 2023 oil company (Exxon, Chevron, China National) profits from Guyana: $1.3 trillion GYD https://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/2024/10/15/exxon-says-dont-compare-guyanas-contract-terms-with-those-of-suriname/ https://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/2024/10/15/exxon-says-don... > Exxon is the operator of the Stabroek Block, with 45% interest, Hess Guyana Exploration Ltd. holds 30% interest and China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) Petroleum Guyana Limited holds 25% interest. Last year, the three companies earned $1.3 trillion in profits – entirely tax-free in Guyana.. the Stabroek Block partners are allowed to recover 75% of the oil produced to recover their investment costs, the remaining 25% is considered profit, which is split between Guyana and the Stabroek Block consortium, giving each 12.5%. > However, the consortium pays a 2% royalty from its share to Guyana. From its 14.5% Guyana then has to pay taxes for the oil companies... for 2023, the Government of Guyana (GoG) had to pay the combined sum of $306 billion in income taxes for ExxonMobil Guyana Limited and its Stabroek Block partners, Hess and CNOOC according to the companies’ audited financial statements, while for the same period Guyana earned $336 billion from its oil.

profsummergig 2y ago
Unsustainable. Things will probably change after enough Guyanese find out.
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  Change how? Like they changed in Venezuela? Venezuela nationalized oil production in 71, it collapsed 50% within a few years, briefly rebounded, and is currently down almost 90%. That didn't work out for Venezuela.
  - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
    Well they're no longer beholden to american corporations. That's a massive win; the market will 100% swing back in their favor eventually.
    - 2y ago

smallerfish 2y ago

If you like travelogues, Wild Coast by John Gimlette is a great read. And, Alex Rothman, youtuber, used Gimlette as a source for (well produced!) videos he made both about Sri Lanka and Guyana. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mszCGt830 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mszCGt830

dividendpayee 2y ago

This reminds me of another blog I enjoyed -- there's a link shortener called https://y.gy https://y.gy, and .gy is the Guayanese TLD. Venezuela was invading Guyana, so the y.gy owner wrote a whole essay about what it would mean for the .gy domain if Venezuela seizes their physical domain admin infrastructure. Crazy stuff. https://app.y.gy/blog/guyana-war https://app.y.gy/blog/guyana-war

meiraleal 2y ago
> Venezuela was invading Guyana Venezuela was threatening to invade Guyana*

iask 2y ago

Guyana is considered part of the Caribbean because they speak 100% English…well creole English (broken English) to be precise. Just like American Indians, the natives there are called Amerindian. There’s also a huge Dutch history…dating back to the 1600 if I remember correctly. WOW! It’s amazing to see Guyana mentioned on HN. If you rally want to know Guyanese, get invited to one of our parties. Fun and down-to-earth folks…well most, some can definitely carry a massive ego seed. If you haven’t met anyone in tech - greetings! A pleasure to meet you. 20 years building successful companies and products in the USA. Wakenaam - Dutch - “Waiting for a name”.

foogazi 2y ago
> There’s also a huge Dutch history I thought Suriname was the Dutch Guyana
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  Currently. Guyana was also owned by the Dutch a few hundred years ago.
makeitdouble 2y ago
> creole English (broken English) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyanese_Creole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyanese_Creole Side note: creoles are accepted as version of French/English etc. that evolved on a different timeline while getting heavy influences from the local languages. For a while it was common to call them "broken" or "bastardized" [0], in language circles that's pretty much a thing of the past I'd say. Same way we don't call French broken Latin. [0] https://guyanachronicle.com/2013/10/13/the-rich-cultural-expression-of-guyanese-creolese/ https://guyanachronicle.com/2013/10/13/the-rich-cultural-exp...
safety1st 2y ago
The map of Guyana at the top of this article listed a location called Kamuda Village, and I thought that sounded interesting, so I checked it out on Google Search and Google Maps. There's basically nothing about it on the English Internet. A point exists on Google Maps and some auto-generated SEO spam pages exist probably for that reason. There are no photos of the location, the terrain view just shows trees. No roads nearby. It's a few hundred meters from the marginally better documented Kukui River. The Internet has a video of some kids at another part of this river who take a raft across it every day to get to school. It looks like there are lots of places in Guyana like this. Inhabited but undocumented, at least on the public Internet. It's fascinating to me that in an era where you just assume everything is online, there's so much of the world that still isn't.

wslh 2y ago

Could someone who is more English fluent clarify this statement? > (including individuals of the male, female, black, Indian, white, Chinese, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, and Jewish persuasion) What "persuasion" means in this context? > ...Janet Rosenberg, who to my knowledge is the only Jewish female head-of-government (and later state) in history outside of Israel (and more recently, Mexico). There is one more, see: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Dreifuss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Dreifuss>.

dcminter 2y ago
> What "persuasion" means in this context? "Of the ... persuasion" is a slightly fancy way of saying "who are ..."
munificent 2y ago
In this context, "persuasion" is an idiom just means something like "background" "has this attribute". It doesn't have anything to do with the typical meaning of "persuade" because English is weird.
- marssaxman 2y ago
  In older writing, one would have used the phrase literally, to describe someone's religious or political affiliation: beliefs one could have been "persuaded" to adopt. One might refer to a preacher "of the Methodist persuasion", say. The modern usage of the idiom came about as a joke - as though someone's sex or ethnic heritage were merely a matter of preference. Over time, the original sense has been forgotten, and the humor has been lost through repetition, so it is now just an odd phrase.
  - embedded_hiker 2y ago
    The US TV show "All in the Family" in the early 70s included the character Archie Bunker, who was an outspoken bigot. This might have been the origin of using "the Oriental persuasion" as a joke. My parents thought it was hilarious, and explained the joke to me. Yes, since then, that usage has leaked from being humor to being used in the sense above.

wslh 2y ago

I wonder, what relatively affordable flights you can get to Guyana? For example, I cannot find flights from São Paulo or Rio de Janeiro.

sdlkj- 2y ago
That is surprising - considering how close they are. I've always ended up flying out of New York or Toronto, at what I'd consider reasonable prices. I suspect it's because of the sizable expat/2nd/3rd gen population in the northeast.
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  Flights are scheduled based on demand, not proximity. There are many Caribbean islands that are so close you can see them from each other on a good day, but the fastest way to travel between them is via Miami.

kgbcia 2y ago

Good read, sent it to my Kindle. It was the CIA who messed up that country in the modern era. Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth. Hope they don't ruin the Amazon rainforest nearby. Hope the racial tensions ease down and infrastructure is built up, so I can visit one day.

blackhawkC17 2y ago
> Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth. Guyana has weak political institutions and high corruption & tribalism. It’s more likely to become a poor resource-cursed nation than a successful one. I truly hope this isn’t the case, but if history teaches us a lesson..
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  What country on earth is strong on protection from corruption and tribalism? Point out the country and I'll point out the nature of the above.
  - blackhawkC17 2y ago
    No country is 100% immune to it. But some countries have developed systems to tame the effects as much as possible. Examples are most of Western Europe, the U.S., and Canada. There’s a clear correlation between low corruption and high economic development.
    - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
      I can't speak to western europe, but the clear devotion the US and Canada have to capital makes this difficult to buy as a general difference. I suspect the distinction in corruption between the west and the rest of the world must come from a working person's perspective. And I would love to hear from any non-westerners here as I suspect it's impossible to get a meaningful evaluation from the west.
      - 2y ago

fracus 2y ago

I would have bet a lot of money that Guyana was a country somewhere in Africa. I'm so surprised to find out it is South America. The article was a good read.

siriaan 2y ago
Just like Andorra - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q_iqrvnC_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q_iqrvnC_4
walterbell 2y ago
At one time, partnered with North Korea! https://apjjf.org/2015/13/4/Moe-Taylor/4258 https://apjjf.org/2015/13/4/Moe-Taylor/4258 > Mass Games in North Korea.. are without comparison the largest choreographed performance in the world.. There are three central components.. gymnastics, music, and the panoramic backdrop.. The backdrop is created through tens of thousands of children aligned in one side of the stadium seats holding books of illustrated cards positioned contiguously with each other to give the illusion of an imperforate surface; by changing the pages of the book in precisely coordinated unison following the signals of a conductor, the backdrop image is transformed throughout the performance.
mixmastamyk 2y ago
Guinea, Guyana, and Ghana… are hard to keep straight. 2/3 in Africa. Add French, New, and Papua combos and no wonder.
teractiveodular 2y ago
Guyana: South America French Guiana: South America Guinea: Africa Guinea-Bissau: Africa Equatorial Guinea: Africa Papua New Guinea: Asia Bonus fun fact: the guinea pig is from Peru and has no known connection to any of these.
- walterbell 2y ago
  More spelling fun, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana

kibwen 2y ago

What an unexpectedly spellbinding historical read.

hulitu 2y ago
> What an unexpectedly spellbinding historical read. Spellbinding ? More like propaganda. Historical ? "When the first spanish settler". One can tell the nationality of the author from those.

robjwells 2y ago

Comparing Jagan and Burnham to (respectively) Trotsky and Stalin is extremely strange. Jagan was perceived as a threat to British interests in Guyana, Burnham was deemed acceptable if unreliable. Britain sent warships and 700 troops to oust Jagan in 1953, suspending the constitution, and later worked (with the US) to ensure Jagan could not reach the top job again. To be clear, Jagan’s PPP had won 75% of the seats in a democratic election. An AP report on declassified MI5 documents about the 1953 coup: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/26/mi5-files-coup-british-guiana https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/26/mi5-files-coup... A good summary of the post-'53 machinations by historian Mark Curtis: https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-sooner-we-get-these-people-out-of-our-hair-the-better/ https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-sooner-we-get-these-peopl...

HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago

Interesting. A few comments. The Banks billboard brought back memories. My mom used to work in the computer department (or whatever they called their IT center) at Banks D.I.H. when I was a kid. I remember playing with used punch cards and having bags of confetti from the punched out chads. The slavery discussion brought out a LOL because it was almost exactly what I was taught as a Guyanese schoolkid in the 70's. Especially the part about the Amerindians basically saying, "fuck this shit" and disappearing back into the jungle. Having lived in the US for over 40 years, I have essentially no connection to the country of my birth any longer (technically I was born in British Guiana, but whatever), so it was interesting to see how it's changed from what I remember. Captions on the photos would have been nice though.

keybored 2y ago

> Currently, Indians have the highest median income of any ethnic group in the United States. While there are cultural contributors to this trend, it’s probably mostly a result of an extremely powerful selection effect wherein only the very economically best and brightest out of the 1.4 billion people in India manage to immigrate to the US. "economically best and brightest". That’s a google search that only shows this article. Now consider the caste makeup. Two thumbs up from the author to the caste system I guess.

sghiassy 2y ago

From an economic perspective and Guyana’s new found wealth, it’s important to understand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

adoniesflorence 2y ago

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