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> There's no appetite to do this kind of work. People are too comfortable. I really hate implication of this statement. (You may not have meant exactly this, b

by eszed 2y ago

> There's no appetite to do this kind of work. People are too comfortable. I really hate implication of this statement. (You may not have meant exactly this, but I've heard it said with a straight face by others.) Syllogized: People don't want to do [unpleasant or dangerous job], therefore let's make the rest of life worse so they will. I can acknowledge the logic to that position, but there is also a logic to let's make [job] less dangerous, more bearable, and / or better compensated. (To be clear: ensuring safety is broadly speaking the realm of government to enforce. Improving pay and working conditions is the responsibility of employers. Unions can affect both, but require the support of the state to be viable.) I don't understand why anyone would choose the option which increases human misery. In what moral system is that the right thing to do?

glitchc 2y ago
> Syllogized: People don't want to do [unpleasant or dangerous job], therefore let's make the rest of life worse so they will. It was simply an observation. I meant the first part of this, not the second part. Try not to read too much into it. No one wants a worse life, however there's also no incentive to improve those job conditions. Historically, once locals stop doing these jobs, they don't pick them back up again. The niche is filled through other means. And that's progress. Technologists often think of robotics and automation as solutions to the dull, dirty and dangerous, and eventually we will make a field welding robot. In the interim, companies will find outside labour to do the work. Construction in North America is some of the most mechanized in the industrial world because of this trend. Take road paving for example, extremely hazardous work that was largely manual with people shovelling and pressing tar. Now there's a specialized machine that lays down an entire lane at a time, with humans largely relegated to operation and maintenance. Isn't that what we all want? That no one has to do this dangerous work?
- eszed 2y ago
  Yes, I agree with you about all of that. In fact, the transition (ie, progress) will come faster if we legislate more-stringent safety regulations, and strengthen workers' bargaining position° in regards to pay and working conditions. Corporations hate that, of course, but increasing labor cost encourages them to invest in innovation. °I like a UBI, but there are many sensible suggestions, all of which require political will. The anti-labor position you didn't take, but others do, stifles progress.

by eszed 2y ago

glitchc 2y ago

> Syllogized: People don't want to do [unpleasant or dangerous job], therefore let's make the rest of life worse so they will. It was simply an observation. I meant the first part of this, not the second part. Try not to read too much into it. No one wants a worse life, however there's also no incentive to improve those job conditions. Historically, once locals stop doing these jobs, they don't pick them back up again. The niche is filled through other means. And that's progress. Technologists often think of robotics and automation as solutions to the dull, dirty and dangerous, and eventually we will make a field welding robot. In the interim, companies will find outside labour to do the work. Construction in North America is some of the most mechanized in the industrial world because of this trend. Take road paving for example, extremely hazardous work that was largely manual with people shovelling and pressing tar. Now there's a specialized machine that lays down an entire lane at a time, with humans largely relegated to operation and maintenance. Isn't that what we all want? That no one has to do this dangerous work?

eszed 2y ago
Yes, I agree with you about all of that. In fact, the transition (ie, progress) will come faster if we legislate more-stringent safety regulations, and strengthen workers' bargaining position° in regards to pay and working conditions. Corporations hate that, of course, but increasing labor cost encourages them to invest in innovation. °I like a UBI, but there are many sensible suggestions, all of which require political will. The anti-labor position you didn't take, but others do, stifles progress.