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You can still have domain experts collaborate directly with engineers instead of adding a middleman in the form of a product manager. The more I work, the more

You can still have domain experts collaborate directly with engineers instead of adding a middleman in the form of a product manager. The more I work, the more I'm convinced that product management is not truly a profession but rather a way for non-technical people to insert themselves into a profitable industry.

deviation 2y ago
This might make sense from a high level, but again, the devil is in the details. Realistically you do need someone (vendor or not) to translate 1000's of pages of legal jargon into actual product decisions. There's a tipping point where paying an engineer $x or $y to do that themselves (if they even have the skill to interpret it) is waste of talent.
- Xss3 2y ago
  Your product decisions are hidden in thousands of pages of legal jargon?
  - capitalatrisk 2y ago
    I only lurk HN but seems that comments such as these are becoming commonplace now. Why the accusatory and negative tone? How does this contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way at all?
robertlagrant 2y ago
The point of a product manager is to make a lot of decisions that don't have a clear answer. "Should we use websockets or REST for our chat client?" - easy technical call. "Which market segment should we target with our features?" - not so technical.
- foldr 2y ago
  There are plenty of technical decisions that don't have a clear answer (e.g. which of 1000 web frameworks should we use?), and plenty of product decisions that do. The separation between roles has nothing to do with clarity but with the (sometimes fuzzy) difference between technical decisions and product decisions.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > e.g. which of 1000 web frameworks should we use? This is fuzzy, but that's because it's not a technical question! It's isomorphic to "what three blog posts on web frameworks did I last read?" (-:
    - foldr 2y ago
      You're right that decisions regarding frameworks are often made for largely arational reasons, but I'm baffled by the claim that these are not technical decisions (unless you're just joking?). If they're not, does that mean that in your model it's the PM who decides which web framework and database the team uses? In any case, even if my example were a bad example for some reason, there are definitely lots of technical decisions that are fuzzy. How could there not be?
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        Oh yes, I agree that there are technical decisions are fuzzy. I'm happy to concede that; just dashed it off too quickly.

deviation 2y ago

This might make sense from a high level, but again, the devil is in the details. Realistically you do need someone (vendor or not) to translate 1000's of pages of legal jargon into actual product decisions. There's a tipping point where paying an engineer $x or $y to do that themselves (if they even have the skill to interpret it) is waste of talent.

Xss3 2y ago
Your product decisions are hidden in thousands of pages of legal jargon?
- capitalatrisk 2y ago
  I only lurk HN but seems that comments such as these are becoming commonplace now. Why the accusatory and negative tone? How does this contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way at all?

robertlagrant 2y ago

The point of a product manager is to make a lot of decisions that don't have a clear answer. "Should we use websockets or REST for our chat client?" - easy technical call. "Which market segment should we target with our features?" - not so technical.

foldr 2y ago
There are plenty of technical decisions that don't have a clear answer (e.g. which of 1000 web frameworks should we use?), and plenty of product decisions that do. The separation between roles has nothing to do with clarity but with the (sometimes fuzzy) difference between technical decisions and product decisions.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > e.g. which of 1000 web frameworks should we use? This is fuzzy, but that's because it's not a technical question! It's isomorphic to "what three blog posts on web frameworks did I last read?" (-:
  - foldr 2y ago
    You're right that decisions regarding frameworks are often made for largely arational reasons, but I'm baffled by the claim that these are not technical decisions (unless you're just joking?). If they're not, does that mean that in your model it's the PM who decides which web framework and database the team uses? In any case, even if my example were a bad example for some reason, there are definitely lots of technical decisions that are fuzzy. How could there not be?
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      Oh yes, I agree that there are technical decisions are fuzzy. I'm happy to concede that; just dashed it off too quickly.