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I've been urban biking for years. It's no doubt dangerous. I don't think you become complacent like you do when when driving. You are pretty aware that these

I've been urban biking for years. It's no doubt dangerous. I don't think you become complacent like you do when when driving. You are pretty aware that these heavy fast moving vehicles are on the same road as you. Part of my commute was on a path off the roads, it was nice. I always leave plenty of time when riding so im not rushing. even when there are separate lanes it's important to stay alert for cars turning onto side streets etc. (As a driver those right turns across a bike lane can be tricky, especially since really fast scooters are using those lanes too)

throw0101d 2y ago
> I've been urban biking for years. It's no doubt dangerous. I don't think you become complacent like you do when when driving. Also: motorcycling. Generally recommended to always assume you're invisible. There's even an acronym for it: SMIDSY, Sorry mate, I didn't see you. * https://www.brm.co.nz/s-m-i-d-s-y-road-craft/ https://www.brm.co.nz/s-m-i-d-s-y-road-craft/ * https://www.webbikeworld.com/scientific-studies-explain-smidsy/ https://www.webbikeworld.com/scientific-studies-explain-smid...
- taneq 2y ago
  SMIDSY is one very good reason for ATGATT
  - marxisttemp 2y ago
    Not quite an acronym but to complete the trifecta, sometimes nobody was at fault and you just haddalayerdown (because we all know steel and human flesh are much better at slowing a motorcycle down than wimpy old rubber)
    - the_sleaze_ 2y ago
      Cue an extremely vivid memory of a rainy drenched Washington DC street awash with glare and sparkle from the street lights. Car in front of me lit the brakes, and I grab the front handbrake on my little 250 to.... nothing. No result. "uh" escaped my mouth as I grabbed a somewhat panicked handful of brake and slammed on the rear again to.. absolutely nothing except a lighter rear wheel. Finally had to just lean into a quick hard veer into the oncoming lane cause the wet and my small bike was just gliding. I learned that day that my last word will probably be "um"
      - opless 2y ago
        I've a similar story, but 35 years ago, a situation which was entirely my fault, 100cc and 'shit'. Ended up with a sore knee, bent forks and a realisation that leaning plus braking in the wet is a great way to make a nice groove into the asphalt!
      - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
        That sounds dignified. I had a 911 a few years ago and it aquaplaned on the motorway at ~160-180kmh, spun 180º, and sent me into the central barrier. I learned my last words were "AAAAAAAAAAAGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!"
      - taneq 2y ago
        When you say 'gliding' you mean the... what? I'm confused. When you lock the front in the wet, 'nothing' is the best possible outcome and even then doesn't last long enough. I'm assuming your 250 had ABS and the 'nothing' was it not dramatically flopping you onto the road. (As an aside, I used to hate ABS and I've now totally come around to it. New ABS is so incredibly much better than old ABS.) Also there's no such thing as a quick hard veer in the wet, the road is like oiled glass.
        the_sleaze_ 2y ago
        No ABS on the 250 and I agree, I won't buy anything without it ever again. By "gliding" I mean the acute sensation of the loss of weighted-ness on the road. Like when you hit a patch of ice in a car or when you're at a severe lean angle and the tires start to skip a little. Let me assure you, there very much is such a thing as a quick hard veer in the wet. My fingers on the keyboard right now are proof, ha-ha
    - taneq 2y ago
      Oh god, that quite literally figuratively literally gave me whiplash. I've heard that "had to lay her down" line and... there is no, absolutely NO situation in which you have to "lay her down". Well okay, maybe if you're trying to slide under a semi-trailer, Bollywood style. Exception that proves the rule, and all that. Edit: You do definitely hear that, though. Not saying it doesn't fit, just that I don't like it. :D
- cj 2y ago
  Exactly this. Part of the experience of riding a motorcycle is being acutely aware of your surroundings at all times. I rode a motorcycle as my daily commute for years, and then when I switched to a car it felt oddly strange how little I had to pay attention: (Possibly controversial belief: riding a motorcycle makes you a better car driver. Motorcycling has made me pick up habits like always looking over my shoulder and not solely trusting my mirrors when changing lanes)
  - sfink 2y ago
    > (Possibly controversial belief: riding a motorcycle makes you a better car driver. Motorcycling has made me pick up habits like always looking over my shoulder and not solely trusting my mirrors when changing lanes) I hope that's not controversial, I fully agree with it. Riding a bicycle does pretty much the same thing, even though the evasive maneuvers take a different form. Motorcycles probably train some instincts that are more relevant to driving a car, though, given the speeds involved. Also, motorcycles train people better because they apply more selection pressure: there are plenty of inattentive bicyclists, and most of them are still aboveground. The inattentive motorcyclists, on the other hand, aren't around anymore to drive cars.
  - MattPalmer1086 2y ago
    Not controversial as far as I'm concerned. I used to say, only half joking, that all car drivers should have to learn to ride a motorbike. I stopped riding a motorbike when I had kids. I was a pretty safe rider and still nearly got hit twice by car drivers assuming that, if cars weren't moving, nothing else on the road would be. Once by someone in stationary traffic deciding he'd had enough and was going to turn and drive the other way without checking his mirrors (I was going slowly enough that I could just about stop although I came off the bike). And once when a driver suddenly shot out of an invisible side road at speed (again, no cars were moving on the main road).
  - tabbytown 2y ago
    > (Possibly controversial belief: riding a motorcycle makes you a better car driver. Motorcycling has made me pick up habits like always looking over my shoulder and not solely trusting my mirrors when changing lanes) Completely agree: 1. Finding the gaps in traffic, and hanging out there and chilling. Cars always cluster together. If I crash when I'm in a gap, it's my own fault. But I'm not going to crash because someone veers into my lane while watching Youtube. (Benefit of motorcycling where lane splitting is allowed: the gap may be ahead, as well as behind. Plus it feels really good to get in front of everyone else when they're all jockeying together to get ahead.) 2. Following distance. Why does everyone follow one car length behind? This is basic driver's ed. If I'm further back I've got time to dodge obstacles, account for slowdowns and react to crashes ahead. This is closely related to #1. 3. Using my turn signals, religiously. I turn them on well before a lane change or turn. 4. Memorizing my route, to avoid distractions. When motorcycling, I don't want my phone out. I need to be caffeinated, laser focused, and geared up for battle. 5. Being comfortable going slow. If I wanted to be fast, I should have put on my helmet :)
- zenoprax 2y ago
  I take it one step further: I'm not only invisible but am being actively targeted with prejudice by those who can see me. You very quickly develop a knack for predicting what "cages" will do at any given moment. As a pilot, there is a sense of "falling behind the aircraft" when your situational awareness diminishes --- getting ahead of the plane by 30 seconds, then 5 minutes, and then 30 minutes translates to non-flying tasks/jobs too. It's a great mindset for "incident management" in any field.
- scott_w 2y ago
  Except if you’re wearing black: then drivers and pedestrians will scream at you to tell you how invisible you are.
jorgesborges 2y ago
No complacency is very real and necessary. When I bike everything is my responsibility, my life is in my hands, so I’m not looking to finger-point when a driver does something stupid or rash — it’s on me to be notice, anticipate, and react so that I don’t get killed.
Reason077 2y ago
> "I've been urban biking for years. It's no doubt dangerous... Part of my commute was on a path off the roads, it was nice." Ironically, in 10+ years of cycling in London, the worst accidents I've ever personally witnessed were bike-on-bike crashes on the crowded cycle lanes! Broken bones, possible head injuries, ambulances and police called. I do recall one near-miss involving a bus and a few dooring accidents but nothing the cyclist didn't walk away from.
seer 2y ago
I think the problem is that in a lot of places in the west bicycles are forced to mix with motor vehicles, and away from pedestrians. This always seemed like a weird trade off to me - “you are inconveniencing some pedestrians, so go in this other lane where you can die” I grew up in Eastern Europe, where technically the laws are similar, but no policeman is going to stop you for riding on the sidewalk. So you naturally mix with pedestrians - that means you travel slower but a lot safer. I remember going to Barcelona ~ 10 years ago and renting some bicycles to explore the city. I knew that this would be a different experience since the laws are different, but my partner at the time just didn’t care to follow local laws, so she just went on and started going on the sidewalks. The locals were _very_ strict in directing you off of them, no police got involved but I could see that happening if you tried to do that more. Now I went there last year, and it was like the locals have “lost the war” on that - maybe because the city has built enough bike lanes that the few places where you _had_ to go on a sidewalk you weren’t that much of a nuisance or because the sidewalks themselves got bigger or something else, but the experience was a lot more pleasant than anywhere else I’ve cycled. Bicycles should _not_ mix with cars in my opinion - let those travel at high speeds, just make mixing of pedestrians and bicycles regulated and safe and all would be well.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 2y ago
  Mixing pedestrians with bikes runs into its own set of issues, at high enough density bikes simply can’t be ridden. Really there’s no one solution that works at every scale. Bikes on sidewalks are also far less safe in deaths per mile than it seems.
  - worik 2y ago
    > Really there’s no one solution that works at every scale Get private cars out of cities. That works
    - Retric 2y ago
djtango 2y ago
I think it depends if I'm coming home from the gym late at night I might be less aware than when I'm my usual self. Especially if the roads are quiet. I've had two near calls in London - once an uber driver swung in front of me out of nowhere to pick up a passenger and it was wet so my bike couldn't stop in time and I went into the back of them. The other a car was parked in the cycle lane and they opened their door just as I was passing. I am now even more aware and paranoid when cycling but my real solution has to optimise my routes for reduced stress rather than speed or distance - I'll happily take a longer route if I know it's much more chill
worik 2y ago
> I've been urban biking for years. It's no doubt dangerous Yes I gave up using my bicycle in the city. It was very good for me, but one mistake and it would be very bad, easily terminal It is easy to make bicycling safe(r): get rid of the cars
Fricken 2y ago
Cycling isn't very dangerous. The average cyclist will outlive the average driver. The health benefits of regular cycling over a lifetime outweigh the risks.

throw0101d 2y ago

> I've been urban biking for years. It's no doubt dangerous. I don't think you become complacent like you do when when driving. Also: motorcycling. Generally recommended to always assume you're invisible. There's even an acronym for it: SMIDSY, Sorry mate, I didn't see you. * https://www.brm.co.nz/s-m-i-d-s-y-road-craft/ https://www.brm.co.nz/s-m-i-d-s-y-road-craft/ * https://www.webbikeworld.com/scientific-studies-explain-smidsy/ https://www.webbikeworld.com/scientific-studies-explain-smid...

taneq 2y ago
SMIDSY is one very good reason for ATGATT
- marxisttemp 2y ago
  Not quite an acronym but to complete the trifecta, sometimes nobody was at fault and you just haddalayerdown (because we all know steel and human flesh are much better at slowing a motorcycle down than wimpy old rubber)
  - the_sleaze_ 2y ago
    Cue an extremely vivid memory of a rainy drenched Washington DC street awash with glare and sparkle from the street lights. Car in front of me lit the brakes, and I grab the front handbrake on my little 250 to.... nothing. No result. "uh" escaped my mouth as I grabbed a somewhat panicked handful of brake and slammed on the rear again to.. absolutely nothing except a lighter rear wheel. Finally had to just lean into a quick hard veer into the oncoming lane cause the wet and my small bike was just gliding. I learned that day that my last word will probably be "um"
    - opless 2y ago
      I've a similar story, but 35 years ago, a situation which was entirely my fault, 100cc and 'shit'. Ended up with a sore knee, bent forks and a realisation that leaning plus braking in the wet is a great way to make a nice groove into the asphalt!
    - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
      That sounds dignified. I had a 911 a few years ago and it aquaplaned on the motorway at ~160-180kmh, spun 180º, and sent me into the central barrier. I learned my last words were "AAAAAAAAAAAGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!"
    - taneq 2y ago
      When you say 'gliding' you mean the... what? I'm confused. When you lock the front in the wet, 'nothing' is the best possible outcome and even then doesn't last long enough. I'm assuming your 250 had ABS and the 'nothing' was it not dramatically flopping you onto the road. (As an aside, I used to hate ABS and I've now totally come around to it. New ABS is so incredibly much better than old ABS.) Also there's no such thing as a quick hard veer in the wet, the road is like oiled glass.
      - the_sleaze_ 2y ago
        No ABS on the 250 and I agree, I won't buy anything without it ever again. By "gliding" I mean the acute sensation of the loss of weighted-ness on the road. Like when you hit a patch of ice in a car or when you're at a severe lean angle and the tires start to skip a little. Let me assure you, there very much is such a thing as a quick hard veer in the wet. My fingers on the keyboard right now are proof, ha-ha
  - taneq 2y ago
    Oh god, that quite literally figuratively literally gave me whiplash. I've heard that "had to lay her down" line and... there is no, absolutely NO situation in which you have to "lay her down". Well okay, maybe if you're trying to slide under a semi-trailer, Bollywood style. Exception that proves the rule, and all that. Edit: You do definitely hear that, though. Not saying it doesn't fit, just that I don't like it. :D
cj 2y ago
Exactly this. Part of the experience of riding a motorcycle is being acutely aware of your surroundings at all times. I rode a motorcycle as my daily commute for years, and then when I switched to a car it felt oddly strange how little I had to pay attention: (Possibly controversial belief: riding a motorcycle makes you a better car driver. Motorcycling has made me pick up habits like always looking over my shoulder and not solely trusting my mirrors when changing lanes)
- sfink 2y ago
  > (Possibly controversial belief: riding a motorcycle makes you a better car driver. Motorcycling has made me pick up habits like always looking over my shoulder and not solely trusting my mirrors when changing lanes) I hope that's not controversial, I fully agree with it. Riding a bicycle does pretty much the same thing, even though the evasive maneuvers take a different form. Motorcycles probably train some instincts that are more relevant to driving a car, though, given the speeds involved. Also, motorcycles train people better because they apply more selection pressure: there are plenty of inattentive bicyclists, and most of them are still aboveground. The inattentive motorcyclists, on the other hand, aren't around anymore to drive cars.
- MattPalmer1086 2y ago
  Not controversial as far as I'm concerned. I used to say, only half joking, that all car drivers should have to learn to ride a motorbike. I stopped riding a motorbike when I had kids. I was a pretty safe rider and still nearly got hit twice by car drivers assuming that, if cars weren't moving, nothing else on the road would be. Once by someone in stationary traffic deciding he'd had enough and was going to turn and drive the other way without checking his mirrors (I was going slowly enough that I could just about stop although I came off the bike). And once when a driver suddenly shot out of an invisible side road at speed (again, no cars were moving on the main road).
- tabbytown 2y ago
  > (Possibly controversial belief: riding a motorcycle makes you a better car driver. Motorcycling has made me pick up habits like always looking over my shoulder and not solely trusting my mirrors when changing lanes) Completely agree: 1. Finding the gaps in traffic, and hanging out there and chilling. Cars always cluster together. If I crash when I'm in a gap, it's my own fault. But I'm not going to crash because someone veers into my lane while watching Youtube. (Benefit of motorcycling where lane splitting is allowed: the gap may be ahead, as well as behind. Plus it feels really good to get in front of everyone else when they're all jockeying together to get ahead.) 2. Following distance. Why does everyone follow one car length behind? This is basic driver's ed. If I'm further back I've got time to dodge obstacles, account for slowdowns and react to crashes ahead. This is closely related to #1. 3. Using my turn signals, religiously. I turn them on well before a lane change or turn. 4. Memorizing my route, to avoid distractions. When motorcycling, I don't want my phone out. I need to be caffeinated, laser focused, and geared up for battle. 5. Being comfortable going slow. If I wanted to be fast, I should have put on my helmet :)
zenoprax 2y ago
I take it one step further: I'm not only invisible but am being actively targeted with prejudice by those who can see me. You very quickly develop a knack for predicting what "cages" will do at any given moment. As a pilot, there is a sense of "falling behind the aircraft" when your situational awareness diminishes --- getting ahead of the plane by 30 seconds, then 5 minutes, and then 30 minutes translates to non-flying tasks/jobs too. It's a great mindset for "incident management" in any field.
scott_w 2y ago
Except if you’re wearing black: then drivers and pedestrians will scream at you to tell you how invisible you are.

jorgesborges 2y ago

No complacency is very real and necessary. When I bike everything is my responsibility, my life is in my hands, so I’m not looking to finger-point when a driver does something stupid or rash — it’s on me to be notice, anticipate, and react so that I don’t get killed.

Reason077 2y ago

> "I've been urban biking for years. It's no doubt dangerous... Part of my commute was on a path off the roads, it was nice." Ironically, in 10+ years of cycling in London, the worst accidents I've ever personally witnessed were bike-on-bike crashes on the crowded cycle lanes! Broken bones, possible head injuries, ambulances and police called. I do recall one near-miss involving a bus and a few dooring accidents but nothing the cyclist didn't walk away from.

seer 2y ago

I think the problem is that in a lot of places in the west bicycles are forced to mix with motor vehicles, and away from pedestrians. This always seemed like a weird trade off to me - “you are inconveniencing some pedestrians, so go in this other lane where you can die” I grew up in Eastern Europe, where technically the laws are similar, but no policeman is going to stop you for riding on the sidewalk. So you naturally mix with pedestrians - that means you travel slower but a lot safer. I remember going to Barcelona ~ 10 years ago and renting some bicycles to explore the city. I knew that this would be a different experience since the laws are different, but my partner at the time just didn’t care to follow local laws, so she just went on and started going on the sidewalks. The locals were _very_ strict in directing you off of them, no police got involved but I could see that happening if you tried to do that more. Now I went there last year, and it was like the locals have “lost the war” on that - maybe because the city has built enough bike lanes that the few places where you _had_ to go on a sidewalk you weren’t that much of a nuisance or because the sidewalks themselves got bigger or something else, but the experience was a lot more pleasant than anywhere else I’ve cycled. Bicycles should _not_ mix with cars in my opinion - let those travel at high speeds, just make mixing of pedestrians and bicycles regulated and safe and all would be well.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Retric 2y ago
Mixing pedestrians with bikes runs into its own set of issues, at high enough density bikes simply can’t be ridden. Really there’s no one solution that works at every scale. Bikes on sidewalks are also far less safe in deaths per mile than it seems.
- worik 2y ago
  > Really there’s no one solution that works at every scale Get private cars out of cities. That works
  - Retric 2y ago

djtango 2y ago

I think it depends if I'm coming home from the gym late at night I might be less aware than when I'm my usual self. Especially if the roads are quiet. I've had two near calls in London - once an uber driver swung in front of me out of nowhere to pick up a passenger and it was wet so my bike couldn't stop in time and I went into the back of them. The other a car was parked in the cycle lane and they opened their door just as I was passing. I am now even more aware and paranoid when cycling but my real solution has to optimise my routes for reduced stress rather than speed or distance - I'll happily take a longer route if I know it's much more chill

worik 2y ago

> I've been urban biking for years. It's no doubt dangerous Yes I gave up using my bicycle in the city. It was very good for me, but one mistake and it would be very bad, easily terminal It is easy to make bicycling safe(r): get rid of the cars

Fricken 2y ago

Cycling isn't very dangerous. The average cyclist will outlive the average driver. The health benefits of regular cycling over a lifetime outweigh the risks.