4 ms·

Nitpick: In Tabata's research, "high intensity" meant 170% of VO2max - definitely not easier to do consistently, even if you can voluntarily sustain 170% VO2max

Nitpick: In Tabata's research, "high intensity" meant 170% of VO2max - definitely not easier to do consistently, even if you can voluntarily sustain 170% VO2max. Popular "HIIT" methodology is only loosely inspired by it, and the mechanisms for their merits would be largely unrelated to that of the original Tabata protocol's benefits (which was about demonstrating a way for elite athletes to push anaerobic capacity at the same time as aerobic, not shaving 50 minutes off their cardio routine). The growing research into how even a small amount of activity can confer significant benefits to the sedentary may be yet another mechanism entirely. I agree shorter workouts are much easier to stick to though, especially since I'm easily bored.

warner25 2y ago
Right. I once experimented with organizing my running workouts according to the original Tabata protocol, as closely as possible, for about six weeks[1]. I wasn't an elite athlete by any means, but I was a 21 year-old Army cadet in the top quartile of cadets in terms of fitness. I found that it's indeed difficult to strike a legitimate 100% effort, even when it's only for 20 seconds and only 5-10 times. My point is not that people should adopt the protocol as a sustainable, long-term routine; it's just that there's been evidence for a long time that short workouts can have disproportionate benefits in addition to being easier to program into day-to-day life. [1] The results on my running performance, specifically over two miles, weren't clear, by the way. I wasn't running my best times when I started the experiment, nor at the end of it. But at least I didn't get worse despite averaging only six miles per week. I've done much better on 15-25 miles per week with a wider variety of speed work.
- seadan83 2y ago
  HIIT or Tabata must not be done day-to-day, everyday. With no recovery days, there will be no gains. A 21 year old is able to recover like crazy, a good 9 hours of sleep might be enough to mostly recover. For others it would not work well and would lead to over-training. In overtraining, the 100% efforts will be 90% efforts, impact the immune system, generally just not good all round. For disproportionate benefits, one needs to define which benefits exactly. A max effort will burn a lot of calories quite quickly and potentially increase V02 max (which is highly correlated to overall longevity). Zone 2 training has become popular and has other benefits, notably increases 'fat max' threshold - which gives different benefits (specifically the ability to work harder for longer while still using fat as an energy source for the exercise). > I found that it's indeed difficult to strike a legitimate 100% effort, even when it's only for 20 seconds and only 5-10 times. This is essentially the point. At the end of Tabata, the last interval should be the last bit of energy you have in the tank. It should be entirely draining. Doing this routine daily will not allow recovery to then properly do the training well. FWIW, I heard it paraphrased as this: the body has essentially too modes, hard & easy. When going hard, it only matters how hard you go, not how long. When going easy, it only matters how long you go for, not how hard. At the same time, zone 2 training and HIIT/Tabata are not mutually exclusive in their benefits, but it's more which systems receive the most benefit while other systems in the body receive benefits but to a lesser degree.
  - warner25 2y ago
    The original experiment was four days per week of the "exhaustive intermittent training" and a fifth day was 30 minutes of zone 2. That's what I followed. It does seem like that fifth day has been forgotten when people talk about Tabata. Like you said, "zone 2 training and HIIT/Tabata are not mutually exclusive," and I've gotten my best results when doing a few hours per week of zone 2 running with a dash of higher-speed intervals or repeats one day. Now that I'm quite a bit older, despite maintaining my body weight and two-mile running time since then, I'd probably get hurt if I repeated the experiment.
  - dspillett 2y ago
    > With no recovery days, there will be no gains. That is true of any exercise regime with much intensity. For muscular activity: pushing towards anything like your limits technically causes lots of minor damage, which the body repairs back better. If you don't give yourself sufficient recovery time within your weekly routine you miss out on a lot of that benefit because the body's repair/improve systems don't have time to properly do their thing. This is one of the reasons¹ why overtraining injuries are a thing. In terms of cardio this still applies, the heart is a set of muscles. Mentally I think there is a similar effect, but pinning down a cause for this is much more hand-wavy and subjective compared to the far better understood² mechanisms of how the body repairs, regulates, and improves, physical structures. Some people seem to manage with minimal recovery time, but they are either lucky³, kidding themselves, or storing up issues ready for a big nasty surprise later. ---- [1] Other similar reasons include damage & fatigue in parts of the body other than muscles, and sometimes just being tired to the point of getting form wrong and hurting yourself through that. [2] though still not entirely understood [3] I'm counting being young as being lucky here. I'm trying to get back into running and other regular exercise (after a period of illness, looking after family with medical issues, and general burn-out) and the biggest thing getting in the way of improving from here is that I'm now in my mid/late 40s rather than early 30s like last time I was at this level of conditioning!
fuzztester 2y ago
>I agree shorter workouts are much easier to stick to though, especially since I'm easily bored. Walking is one of the best mild exercises, if you can do it in a safe place, where you can't trip or fall into a hole or be mugged (or some other risk), because you can think while walking. So you can use the time to think about your work (if applicable, like for software people, at least in some cases), or your life, or anything else. You can also not think deliberately (although thoughts may come anyway), and just enjoy the walk. For example, I think about my side projects while walking, and have been surprised to find that I have sometime made good progress on some of them while doing so.
cenamus 2y ago
Walking up a flight of stairs briskly is way above VO2 max for the vast majority of people, yet doesn't feel "extreme"
- 4gotunameagain 2y ago
  > for the vast majority of people ..In the states. Ask people from Amsterdam or Berlin about running out of breath from stairs. I even remember seeing a study that claimed that people who lived in higher floors with no elevator had in average better cardiovascular health, an easy peasy way to nudge people into the right direction.
  - _glass 2y ago
    I am going to work by bike, and in the beginning, I could still get to zone 2. Now this is really hard to achieve. It becomes really hard to push yourself enough.
  - cenamus 2y ago
    No, I mean in general. You wouldn't have the capacity to walk up 30 flights quickly, partly because you're way over VO2 max, partly because you're way into the anaerobic energy supply to make up for the deficit. But I totally agree on the second point, starting in the the 4th floor was a bit hard in the beginning for me too

warner25 2y ago

Right. I once experimented with organizing my running workouts according to the original Tabata protocol, as closely as possible, for about six weeks[1]. I wasn't an elite athlete by any means, but I was a 21 year-old Army cadet in the top quartile of cadets in terms of fitness. I found that it's indeed difficult to strike a legitimate 100% effort, even when it's only for 20 seconds and only 5-10 times. My point is not that people should adopt the protocol as a sustainable, long-term routine; it's just that there's been evidence for a long time that short workouts can have disproportionate benefits in addition to being easier to program into day-to-day life. [1] The results on my running performance, specifically over two miles, weren't clear, by the way. I wasn't running my best times when I started the experiment, nor at the end of it. But at least I didn't get worse despite averaging only six miles per week. I've done much better on 15-25 miles per week with a wider variety of speed work.

seadan83 2y ago
HIIT or Tabata must not be done day-to-day, everyday. With no recovery days, there will be no gains. A 21 year old is able to recover like crazy, a good 9 hours of sleep might be enough to mostly recover. For others it would not work well and would lead to over-training. In overtraining, the 100% efforts will be 90% efforts, impact the immune system, generally just not good all round. For disproportionate benefits, one needs to define which benefits exactly. A max effort will burn a lot of calories quite quickly and potentially increase V02 max (which is highly correlated to overall longevity). Zone 2 training has become popular and has other benefits, notably increases 'fat max' threshold - which gives different benefits (specifically the ability to work harder for longer while still using fat as an energy source for the exercise). > I found that it's indeed difficult to strike a legitimate 100% effort, even when it's only for 20 seconds and only 5-10 times. This is essentially the point. At the end of Tabata, the last interval should be the last bit of energy you have in the tank. It should be entirely draining. Doing this routine daily will not allow recovery to then properly do the training well. FWIW, I heard it paraphrased as this: the body has essentially too modes, hard & easy. When going hard, it only matters how hard you go, not how long. When going easy, it only matters how long you go for, not how hard. At the same time, zone 2 training and HIIT/Tabata are not mutually exclusive in their benefits, but it's more which systems receive the most benefit while other systems in the body receive benefits but to a lesser degree.
- warner25 2y ago
  The original experiment was four days per week of the "exhaustive intermittent training" and a fifth day was 30 minutes of zone 2. That's what I followed. It does seem like that fifth day has been forgotten when people talk about Tabata. Like you said, "zone 2 training and HIIT/Tabata are not mutually exclusive," and I've gotten my best results when doing a few hours per week of zone 2 running with a dash of higher-speed intervals or repeats one day. Now that I'm quite a bit older, despite maintaining my body weight and two-mile running time since then, I'd probably get hurt if I repeated the experiment.
- dspillett 2y ago
  > With no recovery days, there will be no gains. That is true of any exercise regime with much intensity. For muscular activity: pushing towards anything like your limits technically causes lots of minor damage, which the body repairs back better. If you don't give yourself sufficient recovery time within your weekly routine you miss out on a lot of that benefit because the body's repair/improve systems don't have time to properly do their thing. This is one of the reasons¹ why overtraining injuries are a thing. In terms of cardio this still applies, the heart is a set of muscles. Mentally I think there is a similar effect, but pinning down a cause for this is much more hand-wavy and subjective compared to the far better understood² mechanisms of how the body repairs, regulates, and improves, physical structures. Some people seem to manage with minimal recovery time, but they are either lucky³, kidding themselves, or storing up issues ready for a big nasty surprise later. ---- [1] Other similar reasons include damage & fatigue in parts of the body other than muscles, and sometimes just being tired to the point of getting form wrong and hurting yourself through that. [2] though still not entirely understood [3] I'm counting being young as being lucky here. I'm trying to get back into running and other regular exercise (after a period of illness, looking after family with medical issues, and general burn-out) and the biggest thing getting in the way of improving from here is that I'm now in my mid/late 40s rather than early 30s like last time I was at this level of conditioning!

fuzztester 2y ago

>I agree shorter workouts are much easier to stick to though, especially since I'm easily bored. Walking is one of the best mild exercises, if you can do it in a safe place, where you can't trip or fall into a hole or be mugged (or some other risk), because you can think while walking. So you can use the time to think about your work (if applicable, like for software people, at least in some cases), or your life, or anything else. You can also not think deliberately (although thoughts may come anyway), and just enjoy the walk. For example, I think about my side projects while walking, and have been surprised to find that I have sometime made good progress on some of them while doing so.

cenamus 2y ago

Walking up a flight of stairs briskly is way above VO2 max for the vast majority of people, yet doesn't feel "extreme"

4gotunameagain 2y ago
> for the vast majority of people ..In the states. Ask people from Amsterdam or Berlin about running out of breath from stairs. I even remember seeing a study that claimed that people who lived in higher floors with no elevator had in average better cardiovascular health, an easy peasy way to nudge people into the right direction.
- _glass 2y ago
  I am going to work by bike, and in the beginning, I could still get to zone 2. Now this is really hard to achieve. It becomes really hard to push yourself enough.
- cenamus 2y ago
  No, I mean in general. You wouldn't have the capacity to walk up 30 flights quickly, partly because you're way over VO2 max, partly because you're way into the anaerobic energy supply to make up for the deficit. But I totally agree on the second point, starting in the the 4th floor was a bit hard in the beginning for me too