4 ms·

> It's absolutely a product of nature, bullying is nature especially for boys and young men, this is how men compete and organize themselves socially Yes, when

> It's absolutely a product of nature, bullying is nature especially for boys and young men, this is how men compete and organize themselves socially Yes, when we're young and stupid. You're supposed to grow out of that and learn to handle yourself as a reasonable person, and we need to stop making excuses for grown adults acting like children. > Go study chimp societies, some of the more brutal things they do, humans still do We're not fucking chimps and we have not been "in nature" in a meaningful way since... 3,000 BC? Ish? Hierarchy is no more natural or immutable than any other part of our society. We made it. We can make it differently. > This was part of the point I was trying to make, you have to treat people how you want to be treated See my earlier point about me being hauled in front of a teacher for her to be like "talk out your differences" with my bully. I don't have differences with this dude. He's decided to step on me to elevate his position in society. The fuck would you have me do about this? > It's the LGBT community that's made itself unapproachable via their actions and words and it has less to do with sexual preferences Genuinely, with respect, what the hell are you talking about? I wasn't always what I am today, and the LGBT community was nothing but accepting and open when I, still at the time straight and male, went to them being like "hey I'm questioning some shit" and got to know them, even though at the time I was still a young conservative shit-bag. The only time I see the LGBT folks getting pissy with people is when the aforementioned people start shit because gay folks make them feel icky. > I think the response to Dave Chappelle was a big one for most people, the negative response to him was totally unjustified He used the suicide of a supposed trans friend of his to excuse him spouting anti-trans rhetoric in the guise of humor. And what actually happened from all of that, because as far as I know, he's still wildly successful, rich, and getting gigs. Oh the poor baby, had to have some people on twitter be mad at him for a few weeks and literally nothing else! The horror! > The question to the LGBT community is how willing are you to meet in the middle Depends what your middle is. If your position is you don't wanna hear about me being gay, cool, wasn't gonna tell you anyway. If your position is I can't be gay in public, can't be gay around children, can't marry my partner, can't make use of social institutions while gay? Then fuck off. > Make it illegal for any person under 18 to have any permanent medical procedure or treatment for gender care I would actually say 21 personally. > Limit abortions to the 1st or 2nd trimester unless medically necessary The government has no place telling women what they can do with their bodies, and until such time as a fetus can support itself, it is part of the woman's body and therefore her choice. > Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok * Agreement pedophilia isn't ok Literally nobody disagrees with this, the only reason it's even related is the completely made up bullshit about trans-people reading to kids in the library and that being somehow dangerous, even though we get like, weekly, 2 new abusers outed from one church or another touching kids. Are there pedos who are trans? Sure. There's a shitload more cis-people though. If clowns abused kids as often as priests did it would be illegal to take kids to a circus. > No men in women sports This is a complicated issue that neither you or I is educated well enough to even discuss. > Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society * Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity * Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender No shit? To all of that? The only thing I'd push back lightly on is single parents when they aren't chronically deprived of resources are perfectly capable of raising kids, but that situation is far from the norm. > These are reasonable compromises for most people I cannot emphasize to you enough that as an activist in this space, this is not even remotely what "most people" want. Most people want what Trump ran on, which is ratfucking us out of society entirely because we're the boogeymen. And as of this election, with all branches of the fed now under Republican control, they might be able to pull it off! So if we all end up some combination of imprisoned/institutionalized/dead, it would be real cool if y'all could write in this history books when the ills of society are just as present then as they are now, that I guess we got that wrong and it wasn't actually the gays making everything terrible. However, I am skeptical because history shows us when that happens, that's not what follows. Y'all just move on to the next group of people you decide is the REAL problem and do the same shit to them. Like, I genuinely think you're trying to engage in good faith, but is is clear here that you are not part of my community, because you are coming to this, with respect, like a straight person does. That we're the oddballs, and we need to meet you in the middle in order to be credible or taken seriously or whatever and like, no? No we don't. The gay community has been around for a long, long time. We have lost a lot of people to the ignorance and bigotry expressed by straight society, both intentionally, when we got lynched, and indirectly, with the inaction during the AIDS epidemic of the healthcare system. I'm not interested in playing respectability politics with an opposition that fundamentally demands I cede ground to them in order to earn the right merely to argue my point, let alone have it be genuinely considered. As far as I'm concerned, especially after this election, we owe you nothing. Or to put all of that shorter; we're here, we're queer, get used to it.

ooiaiiaa 2y ago
Nothing wrong with "anti-trans rhetoric" really. The whole concept of "trans" is based on absolutely ludicrous, sexist and homophobic ideas. It needs significant pushback. When implemented as policy and law, it's awfully harmful, to women and children especially. The "anti-trans rhetoric" will continue until this cult-like set of beliefs is pushed to the fringes of society and is no longer used to inform policy.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  Well good luck with that, considering trans and intersex folks have been around... well, as long as everyone else has! But surely this time when you're taking an eliminationist position against a minority of people, history will prove you correct I'm sure, unlike... literally every other time that's happened in human history.
  - RpmReviver 2y ago
    I am truly sorry you have to deal with people like the one you are responding too
RpmReviver 2y ago
People don't grow up at the same pace, no one is really fully mature, most of us in some area in our lives lack maturity and sometimes severely, it's a process, always, it's immature to not recognize this and have compassion for people, it's immature at some point to put on to the world what it "should" be instead of accepting what it is > We're not fucking chimps and we have not been "in nature" in a meaningful way since... 3,000 BC? Ish? Hierarchy is no more natural or immutable than any other part of our society. We made it. We can make it differently. This is not grounded in reality. Tell farmers who birth livestock that they aren't in nature, tell people who are dealing with hurricanes that they aren't contending with nature. Almost everyone's motivations come down survival and sex which doesn't get anymore primal. People will always act like animals to some degree, people will always organize themselves in a hierarchy because it's efficient and it's intrinsic to how people procreate, you're not going to win against millions of years of biology. People will always be afraid or unsure of what they don't understand There's hierarchy's in values, everyone has to choose which of their values are more important than others, there's a reason murder is considered more heinous of a crime than petty theft, it's all down to value of life over things, but abortion is so much more complicated because it's a life vs life problem but that means both sides are right and compromise is the only option > See my earlier point about me being hauled in front of a teacher for her to be like "talk out your differences" with my bully. I don't have differences with this dude. He's decided to step on me to elevate his position in society. The fuck would you have me do about this? In my experience at home, in the moment, stay quiet and take it, get out as soon as possible. After that though when you're out of the environment, to not let it define you, to not let it fill you up with hate and anger, to not become a victim, to not judge entire groups of people, to not let it damage the trust you have in yourself, to be grateful for the opportunity to better understand the world and grow as a person, recognize that experiencing hell allows you to appreciate heaven, to remember there's good in the world I absolutely recognize that I'm not part of your community but I'm also not in the pro-life community, I'm also not an activist. I recognize I won't understand your life experiences, I'm just tired of everyone shouting and dehumanizing each other, from my perspective the activists on both sides are only defending and attacking the extremes of each other to an irrational level, instead of trying to win over the extreme, you should be trying to win over the moderates with arguments rooted in love, empathy, and wisdom Your view about abortion is just as rigid as the other side, giving both sides the benefit of the doubt, neither side has moral high ground. Abortion is such a human issue, both sides have equally valid concerns and values, so do you want to win or would you rather get something rather than nothing? The reality is for this issue, neither side is going to be happy with compromise, and dismissing that is disrespectful to the good values of the other side >> Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok * Agreement pedophilia isn't ok > Literally nobody disagrees with this 100% I do understand this, this is more for the other side to hear, the perception of the bad apples have to be addressed, and being explicit on this shared value would go a long way And I absolutely agree the other side has to address their bad apples as well, I'm just not in a position to speak for the LGBT community on the specifics but the sentiment would be "The future is now old man" and be more empathetic The conservatives could learn how to be better at nurture/empathy from your community and your community could learn how to be tougher individuals to contend with nature from them >> Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society * Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity * Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender > No shit? To all of that? I called this out because I recognize that the other side lacks empathy and it's what I would tell them, it's what I would tell other side who think marriage should only between a man and a women and where they need to compromise, it's more important to have 2 parents > The only thing I'd push back lightly on is single parents when they aren't chronically deprived of resources are perfectly capable of raising kids, but that situation is far from the norm. This is not my experience, I was not in a chronically deprived situation and not having a father figure around fucked me up. Children need to see how two people manage conflict and see that there are two views of the world, it helps build their identity I would agree sometimes a single parent would be better than two toxic people attempting to raise a kid > That we're the oddballs I'm 100% ignorant so don't judge, but aren't you? Aren't the majority of people just straight? I'm open to changing my world view on this The LGBT community is seen as oddballs because based on actions, words, and everything else, it all screams extreme immaturity and mental health issues, your partner chose sterilization because of a law change, I'm sorry but that's literally insane! > We have lost a lot of people to the ignorance and bigotry expressed by straight society, both intentionally, when we got lynched, and indirectly, with the inaction during the AIDS epidemic of the healthcare system This is awful and not ok. At least in the mid west, all I can say overtime your community and the racial equality community has gotten the message out, things don't change over night, but I see progress, your message still gets through all the noise of everything, it's not as frequent as I would want but I see good straight men call out people's bigotry, my generation even in the middle of no where was raised on judging people by their character and we take it as disrespectful and personal to be called a bigot I guess I would caution to think that you're fighting the same enemy, that maybe you've defeated some of your foes and the nature of your opposition has changed > He used the suicide of a supposed trans friend of his to excuse him spouting anti-trans rhetoric in the guise of humor. And what actually happened from all of that, because as far as I know, he's still wildly successful, rich, and getting gigs. Oh the poor baby, had to have some people on twitter be mad at him for a few weeks and literally nothing else! The horror! Between the nature/hierarchy thing and this, I'm not your opposition and don't have a ton of skin in the game, don't pay attention that closely, but this is where you lose my political support and I check out of caring because if there's not agreement on this, there never will be on anything I did not see the same thing as you, I watched his special. I saw a comedian who was using his art to express his sadness over what happened to a friend. He was vilified for it, he did not deserve that. If ever there was going to be a moment for an olive branch, that was it, and your community blew it. Any argument against this just ends up feeling like gas lighting and high lights we aren't living in the same objective reality, and it doesn't help your cause I am certainly not asking you to cede on the core of your values, meeting in the middle has to at least start with an attempt to not vilify your opposition, to show a base line level of respect as human beings, to not "other" people, account for not only the words of the message but also how its delivered, it doesn't matter how you've been treated in the past, bad behavior doesn't justify bad behavior, don't put the sins of others on me

ooiaiiaa 2y ago

Nothing wrong with "anti-trans rhetoric" really. The whole concept of "trans" is based on absolutely ludicrous, sexist and homophobic ideas. It needs significant pushback. When implemented as policy and law, it's awfully harmful, to women and children especially. The "anti-trans rhetoric" will continue until this cult-like set of beliefs is pushed to the fringes of society and is no longer used to inform policy.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Well good luck with that, considering trans and intersex folks have been around... well, as long as everyone else has! But surely this time when you're taking an eliminationist position against a minority of people, history will prove you correct I'm sure, unlike... literally every other time that's happened in human history.
- RpmReviver 2y ago
  I am truly sorry you have to deal with people like the one you are responding too

RpmReviver 2y ago

People don't grow up at the same pace, no one is really fully mature, most of us in some area in our lives lack maturity and sometimes severely, it's a process, always, it's immature to not recognize this and have compassion for people, it's immature at some point to put on to the world what it "should" be instead of accepting what it is > We're not fucking chimps and we have not been "in nature" in a meaningful way since... 3,000 BC? Ish? Hierarchy is no more natural or immutable than any other part of our society. We made it. We can make it differently. This is not grounded in reality. Tell farmers who birth livestock that they aren't in nature, tell people who are dealing with hurricanes that they aren't contending with nature. Almost everyone's motivations come down survival and sex which doesn't get anymore primal. People will always act like animals to some degree, people will always organize themselves in a hierarchy because it's efficient and it's intrinsic to how people procreate, you're not going to win against millions of years of biology. People will always be afraid or unsure of what they don't understand There's hierarchy's in values, everyone has to choose which of their values are more important than others, there's a reason murder is considered more heinous of a crime than petty theft, it's all down to value of life over things, but abortion is so much more complicated because it's a life vs life problem but that means both sides are right and compromise is the only option > See my earlier point about me being hauled in front of a teacher for her to be like "talk out your differences" with my bully. I don't have differences with this dude. He's decided to step on me to elevate his position in society. The fuck would you have me do about this? In my experience at home, in the moment, stay quiet and take it, get out as soon as possible. After that though when you're out of the environment, to not let it define you, to not let it fill you up with hate and anger, to not become a victim, to not judge entire groups of people, to not let it damage the trust you have in yourself, to be grateful for the opportunity to better understand the world and grow as a person, recognize that experiencing hell allows you to appreciate heaven, to remember there's good in the world I absolutely recognize that I'm not part of your community but I'm also not in the pro-life community, I'm also not an activist. I recognize I won't understand your life experiences, I'm just tired of everyone shouting and dehumanizing each other, from my perspective the activists on both sides are only defending and attacking the extremes of each other to an irrational level, instead of trying to win over the extreme, you should be trying to win over the moderates with arguments rooted in love, empathy, and wisdom Your view about abortion is just as rigid as the other side, giving both sides the benefit of the doubt, neither side has moral high ground. Abortion is such a human issue, both sides have equally valid concerns and values, so do you want to win or would you rather get something rather than nothing? The reality is for this issue, neither side is going to be happy with compromise, and dismissing that is disrespectful to the good values of the other side >> Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok * Agreement pedophilia isn't ok > Literally nobody disagrees with this 100% I do understand this, this is more for the other side to hear, the perception of the bad apples have to be addressed, and being explicit on this shared value would go a long way And I absolutely agree the other side has to address their bad apples as well, I'm just not in a position to speak for the LGBT community on the specifics but the sentiment would be "The future is now old man" and be more empathetic The conservatives could learn how to be better at nurture/empathy from your community and your community could learn how to be tougher individuals to contend with nature from them >> Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society * Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity * Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender > No shit? To all of that? I called this out because I recognize that the other side lacks empathy and it's what I would tell them, it's what I would tell other side who think marriage should only between a man and a women and where they need to compromise, it's more important to have 2 parents > The only thing I'd push back lightly on is single parents when they aren't chronically deprived of resources are perfectly capable of raising kids, but that situation is far from the norm. This is not my experience, I was not in a chronically deprived situation and not having a father figure around fucked me up. Children need to see how two people manage conflict and see that there are two views of the world, it helps build their identity I would agree sometimes a single parent would be better than two toxic people attempting to raise a kid > That we're the oddballs I'm 100% ignorant so don't judge, but aren't you? Aren't the majority of people just straight? I'm open to changing my world view on this The LGBT community is seen as oddballs because based on actions, words, and everything else, it all screams extreme immaturity and mental health issues, your partner chose sterilization because of a law change, I'm sorry but that's literally insane! > We have lost a lot of people to the ignorance and bigotry expressed by straight society, both intentionally, when we got lynched, and indirectly, with the inaction during the AIDS epidemic of the healthcare system This is awful and not ok. At least in the mid west, all I can say overtime your community and the racial equality community has gotten the message out, things don't change over night, but I see progress, your message still gets through all the noise of everything, it's not as frequent as I would want but I see good straight men call out people's bigotry, my generation even in the middle of no where was raised on judging people by their character and we take it as disrespectful and personal to be called a bigot I guess I would caution to think that you're fighting the same enemy, that maybe you've defeated some of your foes and the nature of your opposition has changed > He used the suicide of a supposed trans friend of his to excuse him spouting anti-trans rhetoric in the guise of humor. And what actually happened from all of that, because as far as I know, he's still wildly successful, rich, and getting gigs. Oh the poor baby, had to have some people on twitter be mad at him for a few weeks and literally nothing else! The horror! Between the nature/hierarchy thing and this, I'm not your opposition and don't have a ton of skin in the game, don't pay attention that closely, but this is where you lose my political support and I check out of caring because if there's not agreement on this, there never will be on anything I did not see the same thing as you, I watched his special. I saw a comedian who was using his art to express his sadness over what happened to a friend. He was vilified for it, he did not deserve that. If ever there was going to be a moment for an olive branch, that was it, and your community blew it. Any argument against this just ends up feeling like gas lighting and high lights we aren't living in the same objective reality, and it doesn't help your cause I am certainly not asking you to cede on the core of your values, meeting in the middle has to at least start with an attempt to not vilify your opposition, to show a base line level of respect as human beings, to not "other" people, account for not only the words of the message but also how its delivered, it doesn't matter how you've been treated in the past, bad behavior doesn't justify bad behavior, don't put the sins of others on me