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DNA from Pompeii Victims Reveals Surprising Relationships Amidst the Chaos

79 points by rntn 2y ago

inglor_cz 2y ago
In ancient times, Pompeii was a lot closer to the seashore and had at least one port, possibly two (the other on the Sarno river). Port cities tend to have highly diverse populations.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  The Romans also imported a massive amount of slaves from all over the Mediterranean into Italy over the several preceding centuries.
spondylosaurus 2y ago
Damn, I've never seen plaster casts of the Pompeii victims before. Equal parts fascinating and disturbing.
- vanattab 2y ago
  You should go to pompeii is incredible how preserved some of the city is
  - ggambetta 2y ago
    Herculaneum is smaller and less known, but only half an hour away and even better preserved. With proper planning you can visit both sites on the same day.
  - Eumenes 2y ago
    The first time I visited a tour guide screamed at some teenagers doing TikTok dances in the middle of the road and the second time I saw a tour guide scold a woman letting her kid play in one of the functioning water fountains.
    - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y ago
      Sounds like some tourists don't understand the concept of respect
    - floren 2y ago
      Good on those tour guides imo.
    - PKop 2y ago
      Good for those tour guides, it sounds like they really respect their town and don't want it to degrade into generic tourist slop. It's good to have standards of decorum and behavior and to enforce them.
  - beachy 2y ago
    Also the only place I've been where you can see archeologists at work enthusiastically uncovering new artifacts right in front of you.
- antman 2y ago
  If you go to Pompeii the keyword on google maps is “Fugitives” had a hard time finding them on such a archeological site.
INTPenis 2y ago
I bet the people who were left behind were mostly servants and laborers. Because Vesuvio had been rumbling for days, most people with the means to do so had probably already left the city.
- Mordisquitos 2y ago
  There are no historical accounts of people leaving Pompeii as a precaution, and no reason to believe an eruption was expected by anyone. Take for instance this letter from Pliny the Younger to Cornelius Tacitus [0], who provides the only written accounts of the eruption. Pliny witnessed the eruption from Misenum, on the other side of Vesuvius from Pompeii across the Bay of Naples. He mentions how tremors were not considered a cause for concern, and he only describes panicked fleeing as the eruption itself is taking place. By the way, the uncle he mentions is Pliny the Elder, who was in charge of the Roman Fleet in the area and who died attempting to rescue a friend of his from Stabiae, another town which was destroyed by the eruption but not quite as fulminantly as Pompeii. My uncle having left us, I spent such time as was left on my studies (it was on their account indeed that I had stopped behind), till it was time for my bath. After which I went to supper, and then fell into a short and uneasy sleep. There had been noticed for many days before a trembling of the earth, which did not alarm us much, as this is quite an ordinary occurrence in Campania; but it was so particularly violent that night that it not only shook but actually overturned, as it would seem, everything about us. My mother rushed into my chamber, where she found me rising, in order to awaken her. We sat down in the open court of the house, which occupied a small space between the buildings and the sea. As I was at that time but eighteen years of age, I know not whether I should call my behaviour, in this dangerous juncture, courage or folly; but I took up Livy, and amused myself with turning over that author, and even making extracts from him, as if I had been perfectly at my leisure. Just then, a friend of my uncle's, who had lately come to him from Spain, joined us, and observing me sitting by my mother with a book in my hand, reproved her for her calmness, and me at the same time for my careless security: nevertheless I went on with my author. Though it was now morning, the light was still exceedingly faint and doubtful; the buildings all around us tottered, and though we stood upon open ground, yet as the place was narrow and confined, there was no remaining without imminent danger: we therefore resolved to quit the town. A panic-stricken crowd followed us, and (as to a mind distracted with terror every suggestion seems more prudent than its own) pressed on us in dense array to drive us forward as we came out. Being at a convenient distance from the houses, we stood still, in the midst of a most dangerous and dreadful scene. The chariots, which we had ordered to be drawn out, were so agitated backwards and forwards, though upon the most level ground, that we could not keep them steady, even by supporting them with large stones. The sea seemed to roll back upon itself, and to be driven from its banks by the convulsive motion of the earth; it is certain at least the shore was considerably enlarged, and several sea animals were left upon it. On the other side, a black and dreadful cloud, broken with rapid, zigzag flashes, revealed behind it variously shaped masses of flame: these last were like sheet-lightning, but much larger. Upon this our Spanish friend, whom I mentioned above, addressing himself to my mother and me with great energy and urgency: "If your brother," he said, "if your uncle be safe, he certainly wishes you may be so too; but if he perished, it was his desire, no doubt, that you might both survive him: why therefore do you delay your escape a moment?" We could never think of our own safety, we said, while we were uncertain of his. [0] https://gutenberg.org/files/2811/2811-h/2811-h.htm#link2H_4_0066 https://gutenberg.org/files/2811/2811-h/2811-h.htm#link2H_4_...
pvaldes 2y ago
If pyroclastic clouds from volcanoes can reach between 250 and 1000 ºC of temperature, and DNA suffers complete degradation at 190 ºC [1], I wonder how they managed to find anything to analyze here. I wonder also how they discard the possibility of a later contamination. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236457118_Thermal_degradation_of_DNA https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236457118_Thermal_d...
- __rito__ 2y ago
  This is my question as well. How do they know that these DNA samples are not of the people who prepared and/or maintained the casts?
  - valarauko 2y ago
    There are a couple of ways to rule out modern contamination. Ancient DNA has certain characteristic damage that changes the sequence slightly, and you can use that to filter out any DNA that doesn't have that signature. Plus, you can maintain DNA profiles of all people involved in handling to ensure it's not modern contamination from the field workers or lab techs.
    - __rito__ 2y ago
      These makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. 3 people downvoted me for the honest question.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  I would imagine that people that got trapped in buildings would have their DNA never reach anywhere near that temperature. In this case it seems like they got the DNA from plaster casts. I could see the very insides of the body not getting above 190.
- aaron695 2y ago
  [dead]
- Larrikin 2y ago

79 points by rntn 2y ago

In ancient times, Pompeii was a lot closer to the seashore and had at least one port, possibly two (the other on the Sarno river). Port cities tend to have highly diverse populations.

Wytwwww 2y ago
The Romans also imported a massive amount of slaves from all over the Mediterranean into Italy over the several preceding centuries.

spondylosaurus 2y ago

Damn, I've never seen plaster casts of the Pompeii victims before. Equal parts fascinating and disturbing.

vanattab 2y ago
You should go to pompeii is incredible how preserved some of the city is
- ggambetta 2y ago
  Herculaneum is smaller and less known, but only half an hour away and even better preserved. With proper planning you can visit both sites on the same day.
- Eumenes 2y ago
  The first time I visited a tour guide screamed at some teenagers doing TikTok dances in the middle of the road and the second time I saw a tour guide scold a woman letting her kid play in one of the functioning water fountains.
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y ago
    Sounds like some tourists don't understand the concept of respect
  - floren 2y ago
    Good on those tour guides imo.
  - PKop 2y ago
    Good for those tour guides, it sounds like they really respect their town and don't want it to degrade into generic tourist slop. It's good to have standards of decorum and behavior and to enforce them.
- beachy 2y ago
  Also the only place I've been where you can see archeologists at work enthusiastically uncovering new artifacts right in front of you.
antman 2y ago
If you go to Pompeii the keyword on google maps is “Fugitives” had a hard time finding them on such a archeological site.

INTPenis 2y ago

I bet the people who were left behind were mostly servants and laborers. Because Vesuvio had been rumbling for days, most people with the means to do so had probably already left the city.

Mordisquitos 2y ago
There are no historical accounts of people leaving Pompeii as a precaution, and no reason to believe an eruption was expected by anyone. Take for instance this letter from Pliny the Younger to Cornelius Tacitus [0], who provides the only written accounts of the eruption. Pliny witnessed the eruption from Misenum, on the other side of Vesuvius from Pompeii across the Bay of Naples. He mentions how tremors were not considered a cause for concern, and he only describes panicked fleeing as the eruption itself is taking place. By the way, the uncle he mentions is Pliny the Elder, who was in charge of the Roman Fleet in the area and who died attempting to rescue a friend of his from Stabiae, another town which was destroyed by the eruption but not quite as fulminantly as Pompeii. My uncle having left us, I spent such time as was left on my studies (it was on their account indeed that I had stopped behind), till it was time for my bath. After which I went to supper, and then fell into a short and uneasy sleep. There had been noticed for many days before a trembling of the earth, which did not alarm us much, as this is quite an ordinary occurrence in Campania; but it was so particularly violent that night that it not only shook but actually overturned, as it would seem, everything about us. My mother rushed into my chamber, where she found me rising, in order to awaken her. We sat down in the open court of the house, which occupied a small space between the buildings and the sea. As I was at that time but eighteen years of age, I know not whether I should call my behaviour, in this dangerous juncture, courage or folly; but I took up Livy, and amused myself with turning over that author, and even making extracts from him, as if I had been perfectly at my leisure. Just then, a friend of my uncle's, who had lately come to him from Spain, joined us, and observing me sitting by my mother with a book in my hand, reproved her for her calmness, and me at the same time for my careless security: nevertheless I went on with my author. Though it was now morning, the light was still exceedingly faint and doubtful; the buildings all around us tottered, and though we stood upon open ground, yet as the place was narrow and confined, there was no remaining without imminent danger: we therefore resolved to quit the town. A panic-stricken crowd followed us, and (as to a mind distracted with terror every suggestion seems more prudent than its own) pressed on us in dense array to drive us forward as we came out. Being at a convenient distance from the houses, we stood still, in the midst of a most dangerous and dreadful scene. The chariots, which we had ordered to be drawn out, were so agitated backwards and forwards, though upon the most level ground, that we could not keep them steady, even by supporting them with large stones. The sea seemed to roll back upon itself, and to be driven from its banks by the convulsive motion of the earth; it is certain at least the shore was considerably enlarged, and several sea animals were left upon it. On the other side, a black and dreadful cloud, broken with rapid, zigzag flashes, revealed behind it variously shaped masses of flame: these last were like sheet-lightning, but much larger. Upon this our Spanish friend, whom I mentioned above, addressing himself to my mother and me with great energy and urgency: "If your brother," he said, "if your uncle be safe, he certainly wishes you may be so too; but if he perished, it was his desire, no doubt, that you might both survive him: why therefore do you delay your escape a moment?" We could never think of our own safety, we said, while we were uncertain of his. [0] https://gutenberg.org/files/2811/2811-h/2811-h.htm#link2H_4_0066 https://gutenberg.org/files/2811/2811-h/2811-h.htm#link2H_4_...

pvaldes 2y ago

If pyroclastic clouds from volcanoes can reach between 250 and 1000 ºC of temperature, and DNA suffers complete degradation at 190 ºC [1], I wonder how they managed to find anything to analyze here. I wonder also how they discard the possibility of a later contamination. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236457118_Thermal_degradation_of_DNA https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236457118_Thermal_d...

__rito__ 2y ago
This is my question as well. How do they know that these DNA samples are not of the people who prepared and/or maintained the casts?
- valarauko 2y ago
  There are a couple of ways to rule out modern contamination. Ancient DNA has certain characteristic damage that changes the sequence slightly, and you can use that to filter out any DNA that doesn't have that signature. Plus, you can maintain DNA profiles of all people involved in handling to ensure it's not modern contamination from the field workers or lab techs.
  - __rito__ 2y ago
    These makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. 3 people downvoted me for the honest question.
dyauspitr 2y ago
I would imagine that people that got trapped in buildings would have their DNA never reach anywhere near that temperature. In this case it seems like they got the DNA from plaster casts. I could see the very insides of the body not getting above 190.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
Larrikin 2y ago