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I find it surprising that no one has mentioned, what I consider to be, the best source of information and help with the PHP language out there. The ##php IRC c

I find it surprising that no one has mentioned, what I consider to be, the best source of information and help with the PHP language out there. The ##php IRC channel on freenode (1) is an absolutely incredible resource. I've idled in there for many years now and the amount of good, relevant, and accurate information that can be obtained in there is incredible. Whether you have been programming for 5 days or 5 years, simply hanging out in the channel for a couple of days can offer insights and tricks that you may have never known about. Over time, the folks there have compiled an absolutely excellent Wiki (2) for developers; old and new. In addition, there is a wonderful list of general do's and don'ts for PHP application development. (3) Time and time again, we get folks in there who are using outdated technologies (hello mysql_* functions) or just awful tutorials or resources and they get turned around in no time. Disclaimer: as the author states, there are many self-described experts in PHP and they do, occasionally offer bad advice. However, it is rare for the bad advice to go unchecked in this IRC channel so I can still recommend it without worry. [1] - http://freenode.net/ http://freenode.net/ [2] - http://wiki.hashphp.org/Main_Page http://wiki.hashphp.org/Main_Page [3] - http://hashphp.org/ http://hashphp.org/

soc88 14y ago
> there are many self-described experts in PHP I think this is the real problem of PHP. It attracts people too stupid to realize that their own level of knowledge should make them avoid teaching others. As soon as someone points out an issue they almost immediately switch to "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".
- vstm 14y ago
  I guess people are the real problem of PHP. But then again: people are the real problem of everything.
- randomdrake 14y ago
  >It attracts people too stupid to realize that their own level of knowledge should make them avoid teaching others. There are many very, very smart people that try to teach others as a form of their own expression and learning. People coming from other programming languages that are extremely talented in that language, often take on this role as they are confident in their abilities. That doesn't make them stupid, nor should it disqualify them from attempting to teach or help others. > As soon as someone points out an issue they almost immediately switch to "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!". I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. In my experience dealing with precisely that situation, I find that most are actually very willing to accept and admit to their fault. Even in the chat room, over the many years I've been there, there are far more people willing to accept their incorrectness over people who take offense.
  - soc88 14y ago
    > People coming from other programming languages that are extremely talented in that language PHP wouldn't be this worse if this was what would actually be happening, because these people would assess the situation and take away the control from the PHP team, due to its inability to do its job. More realistically, people see PHP and run away screaming. The only people using PHP are those unable to see how unbelievably bad the language and its libraries are designed and implemented. > I find that most are actually very willing to accept and admit to their fault. - So why is the standard library in such a bad shape? - Why is the documentation in such a bad shape? - Why aren't there any established processes in place to prevent repeating mistakes (see above)? - Why are large parts of the implementation barely maintainable? - Why is the ecosystem still in such a bad shape? - Why is the core team spreading bad practices instead of good practices? - Why is the language so unbelievable slow? - Why is the runtime and the garbage collector of such bad quality that it is completely impossible to run sufficiently complex applications over a larger period of time?
    - xd 14y ago
      soc88, dude, can you stop with your personal anti-PHP agenda. You are bringing NOTHING to the table. > - Why is the documentation in such a bad shape? The documentation is up-to-date AND in good shape. > - Why aren't there any established processes in place to prevent repeating mistakes (see above)? What kind of processes? The documentation clearly lays out pitfalls and problems to watch out for. > - Why are large parts of the implementation barely maintainable? What parts? > - Why is the ecosystem still in such a bad shape? What part of the ecosystem? It seems fine to me. > - Why is the core team spreading bad practices instead of good practices? Seriously, give me some examples of these bad practices, please. > - Why is the language so unbelievable slow? In comparison to what? For the class it is in, it is very fast. > - Why is the runtime and the garbage collector of such bad quality that it is completely impossible to run sufficiently complex applications over a larger period of time? Erm, I've run long running processes for years. There was once a problem with circular references but this has long since been resolved. Also, you showed your lack of understanding of PHP in a previous response (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4198984 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4198984) to mine where you where unable to distinguish between the Apache and Cli PHP SAPIs.
ircmaxell 14y ago
That's a very good point. I keep forgetting about hashphp... Perhaps that model is better (a semi-curated list of tutorials off site)...
TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
Freenode's IRC channels tend to be very good. ##c also has great resources on the C languages, for instance.
gits1225 14y ago
http://hashphp.org/ http://hashphp.org/: What should I know about building a website? is an amazing resource. Thanks a lot.
sopooneo 14y ago
This may be deeply stupid, but I'm new to IRC, and I'm getting a message on Freenode saying "Cannot join #php (Channel is invite only)". Am I missing something? Or is it possible to just watch the discussion without participating and that doesn't require an invite?
- yoklov 14y ago
  Freenode uses ##<channel> to refer to "non-primary" channels. Regardless of what that means (I don't really know), the channel you're looking for is ##php.
- snowwrestler 14y ago
  I believe the room name is actually #php (hash php) so you would join ##php.

soc88 14y ago

> there are many self-described experts in PHP I think this is the real problem of PHP. It attracts people too stupid to realize that their own level of knowledge should make them avoid teaching others. As soon as someone points out an issue they almost immediately switch to "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!".

vstm 14y ago
I guess people are the real problem of PHP. But then again: people are the real problem of everything.
randomdrake 14y ago
>It attracts people too stupid to realize that their own level of knowledge should make them avoid teaching others. There are many very, very smart people that try to teach others as a form of their own expression and learning. People coming from other programming languages that are extremely talented in that language, often take on this role as they are confident in their abilities. That doesn't make them stupid, nor should it disqualify them from attempting to teach or help others. > As soon as someone points out an issue they almost immediately switch to "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!". I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. In my experience dealing with precisely that situation, I find that most are actually very willing to accept and admit to their fault. Even in the chat room, over the many years I've been there, there are far more people willing to accept their incorrectness over people who take offense.
- soc88 14y ago
  > People coming from other programming languages that are extremely talented in that language PHP wouldn't be this worse if this was what would actually be happening, because these people would assess the situation and take away the control from the PHP team, due to its inability to do its job. More realistically, people see PHP and run away screaming. The only people using PHP are those unable to see how unbelievably bad the language and its libraries are designed and implemented. > I find that most are actually very willing to accept and admit to their fault. - So why is the standard library in such a bad shape? - Why is the documentation in such a bad shape? - Why aren't there any established processes in place to prevent repeating mistakes (see above)? - Why are large parts of the implementation barely maintainable? - Why is the ecosystem still in such a bad shape? - Why is the core team spreading bad practices instead of good practices? - Why is the language so unbelievable slow? - Why is the runtime and the garbage collector of such bad quality that it is completely impossible to run sufficiently complex applications over a larger period of time?
  - xd 14y ago
    soc88, dude, can you stop with your personal anti-PHP agenda. You are bringing NOTHING to the table. > - Why is the documentation in such a bad shape? The documentation is up-to-date AND in good shape. > - Why aren't there any established processes in place to prevent repeating mistakes (see above)? What kind of processes? The documentation clearly lays out pitfalls and problems to watch out for. > - Why are large parts of the implementation barely maintainable? What parts? > - Why is the ecosystem still in such a bad shape? What part of the ecosystem? It seems fine to me. > - Why is the core team spreading bad practices instead of good practices? Seriously, give me some examples of these bad practices, please. > - Why is the language so unbelievable slow? In comparison to what? For the class it is in, it is very fast. > - Why is the runtime and the garbage collector of such bad quality that it is completely impossible to run sufficiently complex applications over a larger period of time? Erm, I've run long running processes for years. There was once a problem with circular references but this has long since been resolved. Also, you showed your lack of understanding of PHP in a previous response (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4198984 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4198984) to mine where you where unable to distinguish between the Apache and Cli PHP SAPIs.

ircmaxell 14y ago

That's a very good point. I keep forgetting about hashphp... Perhaps that model is better (a semi-curated list of tutorials off site)...

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago

Freenode's IRC channels tend to be very good. ##c also has great resources on the C languages, for instance.

gits1225 14y ago

http://hashphp.org/ http://hashphp.org/: What should I know about building a website? is an amazing resource. Thanks a lot.

sopooneo 14y ago

This may be deeply stupid, but I'm new to IRC, and I'm getting a message on Freenode saying "Cannot join #php (Channel is invite only)". Am I missing something? Or is it possible to just watch the discussion without participating and that doesn't require an invite?

yoklov 14y ago
Freenode uses ##<channel> to refer to "non-primary" channels. Regardless of what that means (I don't really know), the channel you're looking for is ##php.
snowwrestler 14y ago
I believe the room name is actually #php (hash php) so you would join ##php.