4 ms·

This is a satire ... right?

by 7402 2y ago

xpe 2y ago
Haha, no. But I know the feeling. I've seen videos about people who have special physical filing cabinets for notecards that take up an entire tabletop. They have to figure out how to number these things, which can open up a can of worms and lots of differing opinions. This can seem farcical at times. Sometimes the knowledge-management world can seem like a manifestation of OCD or perfectionism. But to be clear, I don't want to discount in any way that such approaches could work for many people on many projects. My general take is that if a person is being mindful about the _effort in_ versus _benefit out_, they'll probably end up in a pretty good place. For YouTubers in a niche of a niche, sometimes there is a positive feedback loop to just go deeper down the rabbit hole. For example, once a content creator has "committed" to a paper-only Zettelkasten system, what are the chances they are going to "mellow out" and move to a hybrid paper+digital system?
- tra3 2y ago
  For a YouTuber it's more advantageous to keep switching between various systems to keep generating more YouTube content. > special physical filing cabinets for notecards It sounds like you're a bit dismissive of it. The creator of this system Luhmann was a very prolific writer [0] which he credited to this system. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklas_Luhmann#Note-taking_system_(Zettelkasten) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklas_Luhmann#Note-taking_sys...
  - xpe 2y ago
    > For a YouTuber it's more advantageous to keep switching between various systems to keep generating more YouTube content. That's a factor, yes, but before I will grant that it is more (or less) advantageous, we would need to have a much longer conversation. (Right now, however, I'm not particularly interested in running experiments and drawing conclusions about how to best optimize YouTube content creation.)
  - xpe 2y ago
    It would be too coarse-grained to say I'm categorically dismissive of paper-based systems. My views are more nuanced. Right, I'm aware of Luhmann and Zettelkasten and ZK-inspired systems. I'm glad it works for him and many others. Still, if one goes down the rabbit holes of ZK and knowledge management systems, you will sooner or later find some videos that leave the realms of productivity and venture into the farcical. This is important to recognize: "There is a common mistake people [make] when [using] PARA, Zettelkasten, GTD, Bullet Journals [...]. / They assume each system is universal. / These systems were [NOT] built for mass consumption." - 2022 blog post by Zain Rizvi titled "PARA vs. Zettelkasten: The false binary" https://www.zainrizvi.io/blog/para-vs-zettelkasten-the-false-binary/ https://www.zainrizvi.io/blog/para-vs-zettelkasten-the-false...
    - tra3 2y ago
      Right, I may have read your comment as generally dismissive of personal knowledge management systems in general, but I see you have a much more nuanced approach. Thanks for clarifying!
      - xpe 2y ago
        So. Many. Tradeoffs. :)
- BeetleB 2y ago
  Both John Wiegley and Adam Porter are insanely productive, so something must be working for them.
  - sexyman48 2y ago
    Underemployment drives active github profiles.
  - xpe 2y ago
    How do you know this? What do you mean? They are in the top X% of software engineers and computer scientists in terms of ... (some kind of productivity)?
    - AlanYx 2y ago
      I'm not familiar with Porter, but Wiegley is a heavy contributor to a number of open source projects, is the author of the Ledger plain text accounting system, has been emacs maintainer since 2015, operates his own software consultancy, and is very active in several open source discussion lists. The guy is a dynamo.
    - BeetleB 2y ago
      Perhaps I should have said "impactful" instead of "productive", but in my experience the two tend to be correlated. John Wiegley has authored a number of highly used open source tools and libraries. So has Adam Porter (although perhaps not as much as John). I wasn't comparing them globally with all SW engineers. My point was that they likely have accomplished more than most, if not all, the commenters in this submission. I, personally, would be cautious in criticizing their workflow unless I can demonstrate something better. Otherwise it's just armchair criticism.
      - xpe 2y ago
        Many of these are points I would agree with, except: > [comparisons to] commenters in this submission I wouldn’t make claims as to the level of accomplishment here, not least of which because I’m not willing to pick any one definition of accomplishment. For example, I’ll avoid the temptation to conflate visibility and popularity with productivity. > be cautious in criticizing their workflow unless I can demonstrate something better Yes, making assessments based on comparisons against alternatives is important. And I’m inclined to give their approach attention and consideration, especially for people with their mindset and skillset. But generally, I’m not willing to grant any particular level of broader applicability for a given audience. So I would reframe this discussion as a question: “Which of their practices are likely to work for [me/my team]?” Like so many things in life, valid generalization is hard. Especially hard when no one knows the correct answer, so instead we assess better and worse. So, reinforcement learning. And RL in complex environments with large action spaces can be very data intensive!
- Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
  >This can seem farcical at times. Sometimes the knowledge-management world can seem like a manifestation of OCD or perfectionism. >But to be clear, I don't want to discount in any way that such approaches could work for many people on many projects. My general take is that if a person is being mindful about the _effort in_ versus _benefit out_, they'll probably end up in a pretty good place. >My general take is that if a person is being mindful about the _effort in_ versus _benefit out_, they'll probably end up in a pretty good place. :(
iLemming 2y ago
What point(s) of that discussion feel to you like satire? I'm not trying to be snarky; I'm genuinely curious. I remember myself when I was younger; I never viewed note-taking as a serious endeavor. Oh boy, how wrong I was. I wish I had found better ways of taking notes sooner.
- donaldihunter 2y ago
  I am so here for this comment. I forget things. If I don't take notes then I have to spend time rediscovering things. Searching my own notes solves that problem for me. I wish I had started taking comprehensive notes sooner.
  - iLemming 2y ago
    Notes are not only to help you retain information. They are also a great research instrument. Whenever I need to give a status report, I can quickly compose the status update or even a presentation based on past experiences. Because I use Emacs for my note-taking, I can quickly browse relevant GitHub issues, PRs, Jira tickets, Emails, etc. - without ever having to open or search for anything in the browser. I can run code snippets in different languages and send HTTP requests and analyze and even visualize the results. I can have tables with spreadsheet-like calculations. I can turn my notes into Anki cards and synchronize them so I can then review them on my phone - spaced repetition is a great tool for memorizing things. I can create PDF annotations - right there, inside my notes - PDF document would be displayed in the next pane. I can store links to specific places in our codebases and annotate code without having to change the code or add comments. I can type something like 'RFC 6962' and immediately start browsing the relevant document (again, right there where my notes are). I can type a question to an LLM and get the answer inlined. I can look up any Wikipedia terms or search on Google, DDG or GitHub - and again, without switching to the browser. I can translate sentences and whole paragraphs between languages. And the greatest thing about this all? I don't have to pay a damn dime to anyone - these tools are free. And I don't have to worry about some company taking my data hostage. I don't have to worry about converting my notes to a meaningful format - it is all just plain text. I can easily convert my notes, analyze them, gather stats, encrypt them, send them to LLM engine for processing, force Emacs to read them to me out loud. The possibilities are virtually unlimited.
sexyman48 2y ago
No, emacs and note-taking are forms of pointlessly recursive refinement. Think of sharpening a sword you've no intention to swing. Hold up a hand mirror to your vanity mirror. The resulting wormhole is what you get with emacs and note-taking.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > Think of sharpening a sword you've no intention to swing. More like having every intention to achieve glorious victory in battle with your sword, but never getting to it as you keep finding ways to make the sword even sharper. That's legitimate trap, yes. Most are so afraid of this trap, that they just live on the battlefield and keep fighting with their dull, wooden swords; when asked if they heard about sharpening - or steel - they mumble some quotes from Arthur C. Clarke's story, "Superiority". And it's true, many people fall into this trap. Some are never heard from again. But then others occasionally share their sword designs and sharpening tricks, which end up improving weapons for the whole army. Then there are those who pop in and out, tinkering in the field, upgrading their blades until they become rocket propelled chainsaws or other weird shit. The truth is, if you're not satisfied with your Army Standard Issue Sword and want something better, you'll need to fall into this trap once or twice. That's how you learn how to upgrade your own gear. Or, in short: exploration vs. exploitation tradeoff. If you want to get shit done, you need to find a good balance. Maximizing either of the two is a failure.

This is a satire ... right?

by 7402 2y ago

This is a satire ... right?

xpe 2y ago

Haha, no. But I know the feeling. I've seen videos about people who have special physical filing cabinets for notecards that take up an entire tabletop. They have to figure out how to number these things, which can open up a can of worms and lots of differing opinions. This can seem farcical at times. Sometimes the knowledge-management world can seem like a manifestation of OCD or perfectionism. But to be clear, I don't want to discount in any way that such approaches could work for many people on many projects. My general take is that if a person is being mindful about the _effort in_ versus _benefit out_, they'll probably end up in a pretty good place. For YouTubers in a niche of a niche, sometimes there is a positive feedback loop to just go deeper down the rabbit hole. For example, once a content creator has "committed" to a paper-only Zettelkasten system, what are the chances they are going to "mellow out" and move to a hybrid paper+digital system?

tra3 2y ago
For a YouTuber it's more advantageous to keep switching between various systems to keep generating more YouTube content. > special physical filing cabinets for notecards It sounds like you're a bit dismissive of it. The creator of this system Luhmann was a very prolific writer [0] which he credited to this system. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklas_Luhmann#Note-taking_system_(Zettelkasten) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklas_Luhmann#Note-taking_sys...
- xpe 2y ago
  > For a YouTuber it's more advantageous to keep switching between various systems to keep generating more YouTube content. That's a factor, yes, but before I will grant that it is more (or less) advantageous, we would need to have a much longer conversation. (Right now, however, I'm not particularly interested in running experiments and drawing conclusions about how to best optimize YouTube content creation.)
- xpe 2y ago
  It would be too coarse-grained to say I'm categorically dismissive of paper-based systems. My views are more nuanced. Right, I'm aware of Luhmann and Zettelkasten and ZK-inspired systems. I'm glad it works for him and many others. Still, if one goes down the rabbit holes of ZK and knowledge management systems, you will sooner or later find some videos that leave the realms of productivity and venture into the farcical. This is important to recognize: "There is a common mistake people [make] when [using] PARA, Zettelkasten, GTD, Bullet Journals [...]. / They assume each system is universal. / These systems were [NOT] built for mass consumption." - 2022 blog post by Zain Rizvi titled "PARA vs. Zettelkasten: The false binary" https://www.zainrizvi.io/blog/para-vs-zettelkasten-the-false-binary/ https://www.zainrizvi.io/blog/para-vs-zettelkasten-the-false...
  - tra3 2y ago
    Right, I may have read your comment as generally dismissive of personal knowledge management systems in general, but I see you have a much more nuanced approach. Thanks for clarifying!
    - xpe 2y ago
      So. Many. Tradeoffs. :)
BeetleB 2y ago
Both John Wiegley and Adam Porter are insanely productive, so something must be working for them.
- sexyman48 2y ago
  Underemployment drives active github profiles.
- xpe 2y ago
  How do you know this? What do you mean? They are in the top X% of software engineers and computer scientists in terms of ... (some kind of productivity)?
  - AlanYx 2y ago
    I'm not familiar with Porter, but Wiegley is a heavy contributor to a number of open source projects, is the author of the Ledger plain text accounting system, has been emacs maintainer since 2015, operates his own software consultancy, and is very active in several open source discussion lists. The guy is a dynamo.
  - BeetleB 2y ago
    Perhaps I should have said "impactful" instead of "productive", but in my experience the two tend to be correlated. John Wiegley has authored a number of highly used open source tools and libraries. So has Adam Porter (although perhaps not as much as John). I wasn't comparing them globally with all SW engineers. My point was that they likely have accomplished more than most, if not all, the commenters in this submission. I, personally, would be cautious in criticizing their workflow unless I can demonstrate something better. Otherwise it's just armchair criticism.
    - xpe 2y ago
      Many of these are points I would agree with, except: > [comparisons to] commenters in this submission I wouldn’t make claims as to the level of accomplishment here, not least of which because I’m not willing to pick any one definition of accomplishment. For example, I’ll avoid the temptation to conflate visibility and popularity with productivity. > be cautious in criticizing their workflow unless I can demonstrate something better Yes, making assessments based on comparisons against alternatives is important. And I’m inclined to give their approach attention and consideration, especially for people with their mindset and skillset. But generally, I’m not willing to grant any particular level of broader applicability for a given audience. So I would reframe this discussion as a question: “Which of their practices are likely to work for [me/my team]?” Like so many things in life, valid generalization is hard. Especially hard when no one knows the correct answer, so instead we assess better and worse. So, reinforcement learning. And RL in complex environments with large action spaces can be very data intensive!
Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
>This can seem farcical at times. Sometimes the knowledge-management world can seem like a manifestation of OCD or perfectionism. >But to be clear, I don't want to discount in any way that such approaches could work for many people on many projects. My general take is that if a person is being mindful about the _effort in_ versus _benefit out_, they'll probably end up in a pretty good place. >My general take is that if a person is being mindful about the _effort in_ versus _benefit out_, they'll probably end up in a pretty good place. :(

iLemming 2y ago

What point(s) of that discussion feel to you like satire? I'm not trying to be snarky; I'm genuinely curious. I remember myself when I was younger; I never viewed note-taking as a serious endeavor. Oh boy, how wrong I was. I wish I had found better ways of taking notes sooner.

donaldihunter 2y ago
I am so here for this comment. I forget things. If I don't take notes then I have to spend time rediscovering things. Searching my own notes solves that problem for me. I wish I had started taking comprehensive notes sooner.
- iLemming 2y ago
  Notes are not only to help you retain information. They are also a great research instrument. Whenever I need to give a status report, I can quickly compose the status update or even a presentation based on past experiences. Because I use Emacs for my note-taking, I can quickly browse relevant GitHub issues, PRs, Jira tickets, Emails, etc. - without ever having to open or search for anything in the browser. I can run code snippets in different languages and send HTTP requests and analyze and even visualize the results. I can have tables with spreadsheet-like calculations. I can turn my notes into Anki cards and synchronize them so I can then review them on my phone - spaced repetition is a great tool for memorizing things. I can create PDF annotations - right there, inside my notes - PDF document would be displayed in the next pane. I can store links to specific places in our codebases and annotate code without having to change the code or add comments. I can type something like 'RFC 6962' and immediately start browsing the relevant document (again, right there where my notes are). I can type a question to an LLM and get the answer inlined. I can look up any Wikipedia terms or search on Google, DDG or GitHub - and again, without switching to the browser. I can translate sentences and whole paragraphs between languages. And the greatest thing about this all? I don't have to pay a damn dime to anyone - these tools are free. And I don't have to worry about some company taking my data hostage. I don't have to worry about converting my notes to a meaningful format - it is all just plain text. I can easily convert my notes, analyze them, gather stats, encrypt them, send them to LLM engine for processing, force Emacs to read them to me out loud. The possibilities are virtually unlimited.

sexyman48 2y ago

No, emacs and note-taking are forms of pointlessly recursive refinement. Think of sharpening a sword you've no intention to swing. Hold up a hand mirror to your vanity mirror. The resulting wormhole is what you get with emacs and note-taking.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
> Think of sharpening a sword you've no intention to swing. More like having every intention to achieve glorious victory in battle with your sword, but never getting to it as you keep finding ways to make the sword even sharper. That's legitimate trap, yes. Most are so afraid of this trap, that they just live on the battlefield and keep fighting with their dull, wooden swords; when asked if they heard about sharpening - or steel - they mumble some quotes from Arthur C. Clarke's story, "Superiority". And it's true, many people fall into this trap. Some are never heard from again. But then others occasionally share their sword designs and sharpening tricks, which end up improving weapons for the whole army. Then there are those who pop in and out, tinkering in the field, upgrading their blades until they become rocket propelled chainsaws or other weird shit. The truth is, if you're not satisfied with your Army Standard Issue Sword and want something better, you'll need to fall into this trap once or twice. That's how you learn how to upgrade your own gear. Or, in short: exploration vs. exploitation tradeoff. If you want to get shit done, you need to find a good balance. Maximizing either of the two is a failure.