4 ms·

I would say they were dying to entertain the masses too. And then during the thrilling final act, it often came true.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago
> The most common perception of gladiatorial games is that they were violent and gruesome because someone always died,” says archaeologist R. R. R. Smith of the University of Oxford, who directs excavations at the site of Aphrodisias. “This isn’t true. In gladiatorial games, most of the time, both participants left the arena on their feet. The games weren’t about killing, but about the excitement of two men fighting, about showcasing skill, discipline, endurance, strength, tactics, and different weapons.” In the rare cases when gladiators were killed or condemned to death, they had been trained to die theatrically to add to the performance’s impact.
- tokai 2y ago
  Yeah, would rather have been a gladiator than a charioteer.
  - GJim 2y ago
    Yet many of us bikers long to compete in the Isle of Man TT. Here is an example of what a lap of the circuit looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31RZ5wU-Fg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31RZ5wU-Fg0 Riding in the TT is like climbing Everest. It's the ultimate challenge. Typically, there is at _least_ one death during racing each year. Often many more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_TT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_TT
    - wil421 2y ago
      What does this have to do with chariots or am I missing some context?
      - whartung 2y ago
        Just supposing that being a chariot driver was more dangerous and lethal than being a Gladiator. The Isle of Man motorcycle races (with a death toll of 1-2% per year) are, both today, and historically, one of the most dangerous motor vehicle events in the world. IoM takes both novices and veterans. Yet, they all sign up anyway. It's a thrilling spectacle to be sure.
        WalterBright 2y ago
        I thought IoM vetted the contestants to keep out inept riders.
        whartung 2y ago
        That's the whole point. IoM is an equal opportunity killer. The "novices" are those new to the course, not new to racing. They're skilled racers, proven, successful. But stuff happens, and the course can be unforgiving. David Jefferies was a lap record holding, TT winning champion when he collided with a wall in 2003.
      - GJim 2y ago
        The point you missed..... is that like chariot racing once was, the TT is a stupidly dangerous thing to do, yet it's a race many will willingly risk their lives to compete in for the challenge. ergo, I'd much rather be a charioteer (a modern TT racer), than a comparatively safe gladiator (a modern boxer). :-)
- frandroid 2y ago
  So, WWE more than war-like fighting
  - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
    I think MMA would be a more apt comparison; the fighting itself was very real, if still entertainment.
    - tokai 2y ago
      With how expensive payouts to the stable of a dead gladiator could be[0], it seems very likely to me that a lot of the matches were at least coordinated, if not outright planned. [0] "But if he were injured or killed, the lease would convert to a sale and the gladiator's full cost would have to be paid, a sum that might be some 50 times higher than the lease price." https://www.jstor.org/stable/30038038 https://www.jstor.org/stable/30038038
      - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
        I sort of agree in the sense that most fights you could probably guess who wins, but I don't think that's the same as a cooperative performance.
- Mistletoe 2y ago
  By nature they are violent because they are fighting. I would not like these odds. > There have been works that estimate the actual percentage of deaths; the highest I've heard is 1/5 matches resulting in a death, quite often accidentally. That was Mary Beard's estimate. Many other authors have estimate somewhere between 1/5 and 1/8 matches resulting in deaths. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/12k1r6/how_frequently_did_roman_gladiators_actually_die/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/12k1r6/how_f...
  - trhway 2y ago
    That about the odds to be killed in a year for a Russian volunteer signing up to go to Ukraine. They do it for just $3k/month - for many Russians it is a great money and thus they risk their lives. Giving the limited options, it may as well be that many gladiators were happy to fight in the arena instead of dying from hunger and exhaustion in say quarry.
    - tumsfestival 2y ago
      Considering many people willingly became gladiators you're pretty on point, it was not only about money, but it was an easy way to gain access to housing, food and other amenities that gladiators were offered between fights and training, not to mention it could also be an alternative to slavery when one fell into debt they couldn't repay.
      - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
        Most gladiators were slaves, fyi. Rarely you could make enough money to buy your freedom, but that was hardly unique to being a gladiator. Your other points still stand—it was more attractive than destitute poverty or death.
        nothercastle 2y ago
        Also better death as a gladiator than death in the mines.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  Given all the training done with gladiators, if every match resulted in a death, it would likely be unsustainable. Imagine if Formula 1 racing was a demolition derby.
- DamnYuppie 2y ago
  To be honest when I think of Gladiators I think in terms of WWE wrestling more than I do MMA. As it is meant to be more of a spectacle.
  - clown_strike 2y ago
    Looks more like Medieval Times to me. WWE is just a bunch of performative groping. Even Cirque du Soleil carries more risk of death. The corpse removal process is seamless enough that the show continues.
    - harimau777 2y ago
      For what it's worth: As a martial artist, the hits WWE fighters take are mind boggling. Part of learning martial arts is learning how to safely take a fall. As far as I can see, a lot of the falls and hits that people are taking in WWE are the sort that you can't really take "safely". As far as I can tell, they are often just ignoring the pain and doing the best they can to minimize the damage.
    - tumsfestival 2y ago
      You really don't know anything about pro wrestling if that's what you think. The moves they perform might not have the intention hurting, but they're both dangerous and painful, there's a lot of skill involved to not end up in a hospital, not to mention some of the less spectacular moves come directly from olympic wrestling and it's variants. It's a performative spectacle, but it doesn't make it any less dangerous or skillful, saying otherwise is just being ignorant.
    - sushid 2y ago
      > Even Cirque du Soleil carries more risk of death. The corpse removal process is seamless enough that the show continues. I was shocked to hear this and looked up a Wikipedia article [0]. Given their reaction when a performer died (abrupt stoppage of the show with full refunds), I think you're making this up. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sarah_Guyard-Guillot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sarah_Guyard-Guillot
  - 2y ago

> The most common perception of gladiatorial games is that they were violent and gruesome because someone always died,” says archaeologist R. R. R. Smith of the University of Oxford, who directs excavations at the site of Aphrodisias. “This isn’t true. In gladiatorial games, most of the time, both participants left the arena on their feet. The games weren’t about killing, but about the excitement of two men fighting, about showcasing skill, discipline, endurance, strength, tactics, and different weapons.” In the rare cases when gladiators were killed or condemned to death, they had been trained to die theatrically to add to the performance’s impact.

tokai 2y ago
Yeah, would rather have been a gladiator than a charioteer.
- GJim 2y ago
  Yet many of us bikers long to compete in the Isle of Man TT. Here is an example of what a lap of the circuit looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31RZ5wU-Fg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31RZ5wU-Fg0 Riding in the TT is like climbing Everest. It's the ultimate challenge. Typically, there is at _least_ one death during racing each year. Often many more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_TT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_TT
  - wil421 2y ago
    What does this have to do with chariots or am I missing some context?
    - whartung 2y ago
      Just supposing that being a chariot driver was more dangerous and lethal than being a Gladiator. The Isle of Man motorcycle races (with a death toll of 1-2% per year) are, both today, and historically, one of the most dangerous motor vehicle events in the world. IoM takes both novices and veterans. Yet, they all sign up anyway. It's a thrilling spectacle to be sure.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        I thought IoM vetted the contestants to keep out inept riders.
        whartung 2y ago
        That's the whole point. IoM is an equal opportunity killer. The "novices" are those new to the course, not new to racing. They're skilled racers, proven, successful. But stuff happens, and the course can be unforgiving. David Jefferies was a lap record holding, TT winning champion when he collided with a wall in 2003.
    - GJim 2y ago
      The point you missed..... is that like chariot racing once was, the TT is a stupidly dangerous thing to do, yet it's a race many will willingly risk their lives to compete in for the challenge. ergo, I'd much rather be a charioteer (a modern TT racer), than a comparatively safe gladiator (a modern boxer). :-)
frandroid 2y ago
So, WWE more than war-like fighting
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  I think MMA would be a more apt comparison; the fighting itself was very real, if still entertainment.
  - tokai 2y ago
    With how expensive payouts to the stable of a dead gladiator could be[0], it seems very likely to me that a lot of the matches were at least coordinated, if not outright planned. [0] "But if he were injured or killed, the lease would convert to a sale and the gladiator's full cost would have to be paid, a sum that might be some 50 times higher than the lease price." https://www.jstor.org/stable/30038038 https://www.jstor.org/stable/30038038
    - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
      I sort of agree in the sense that most fights you could probably guess who wins, but I don't think that's the same as a cooperative performance.
Mistletoe 2y ago
By nature they are violent because they are fighting. I would not like these odds. > There have been works that estimate the actual percentage of deaths; the highest I've heard is 1/5 matches resulting in a death, quite often accidentally. That was Mary Beard's estimate. Many other authors have estimate somewhere between 1/5 and 1/8 matches resulting in deaths. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/12k1r6/how_frequently_did_roman_gladiators_actually_die/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/12k1r6/how_f...
- trhway 2y ago
  That about the odds to be killed in a year for a Russian volunteer signing up to go to Ukraine. They do it for just $3k/month - for many Russians it is a great money and thus they risk their lives. Giving the limited options, it may as well be that many gladiators were happy to fight in the arena instead of dying from hunger and exhaustion in say quarry.
  - tumsfestival 2y ago
    Considering many people willingly became gladiators you're pretty on point, it was not only about money, but it was an easy way to gain access to housing, food and other amenities that gladiators were offered between fights and training, not to mention it could also be an alternative to slavery when one fell into debt they couldn't repay.
    - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
      Most gladiators were slaves, fyi. Rarely you could make enough money to buy your freedom, but that was hardly unique to being a gladiator. Your other points still stand—it was more attractive than destitute poverty or death.
      - nothercastle 2y ago
        Also better death as a gladiator than death in the mines.
WalterBright 2y ago
Given all the training done with gladiators, if every match resulted in a death, it would likely be unsustainable. Imagine if Formula 1 racing was a demolition derby.
DamnYuppie 2y ago
To be honest when I think of Gladiators I think in terms of WWE wrestling more than I do MMA. As it is meant to be more of a spectacle.
- clown_strike 2y ago
  Looks more like Medieval Times to me. WWE is just a bunch of performative groping. Even Cirque du Soleil carries more risk of death. The corpse removal process is seamless enough that the show continues.
  - harimau777 2y ago
    For what it's worth: As a martial artist, the hits WWE fighters take are mind boggling. Part of learning martial arts is learning how to safely take a fall. As far as I can see, a lot of the falls and hits that people are taking in WWE are the sort that you can't really take "safely". As far as I can tell, they are often just ignoring the pain and doing the best they can to minimize the damage.
  - tumsfestival 2y ago
    You really don't know anything about pro wrestling if that's what you think. The moves they perform might not have the intention hurting, but they're both dangerous and painful, there's a lot of skill involved to not end up in a hospital, not to mention some of the less spectacular moves come directly from olympic wrestling and it's variants. It's a performative spectacle, but it doesn't make it any less dangerous or skillful, saying otherwise is just being ignorant.
  - sushid 2y ago
    > Even Cirque du Soleil carries more risk of death. The corpse removal process is seamless enough that the show continues. I was shocked to hear this and looked up a Wikipedia article [0]. Given their reaction when a performer died (abrupt stoppage of the show with full refunds), I think you're making this up. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sarah_Guyard-Guillot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sarah_Guyard-Guillot
- 2y ago