4 ms·

The government, and big tech companies, don’t need air tags or “find me” to track almost everyone, they have a mobile phone constantly chatting with local towe

The government, and big tech companies, don’t need air tags or “find me” to track almost everyone, they have a mobile phone constantly chatting with local towers. I don’t understand what is dystopian about knowing where I left my keys, and seeing how my wife’s commute home is doing without phoning her while she is driving, assuming we always both have mobile phones.

afro88 2y ago
The dystopian bit is the corporation having this data, not you. And having this data for all users. Pretty much everyone has a mobile phone.
- ilkke 2y ago
  Isn't this the point they were trying to make? The corporations already have that data, it comes with the platform. The bit where you can use some of it for own purposes is not really the offending part.
  - afro88 2y ago
    It's offending because it's complicit with the dystopian mass surveillance. Encouraging of it even. "I can find my keys when I lose them, so it's fine that a single corporation knows where billions of people are and what they are doing"
- throw_pm23 2y ago
  No, I think you having the data is also creepy. I wouldn't want my wife to follow all my steps, and neither would she.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - JKCalhoun 2y ago
    Our family (my daughters, wife) has had Find My paired on our phones since, well 2010 when it was introduced. We like it. I remember watching my sister and her husband calling each other frequently with, "How far are you away from home?" and just kind of scratched my head. (I think I have sinced talked them into enabling Find My.) When my wife or I want to call a daughter we can see immediately if they are at work or at home... things like that are nice. There's also an indescribable sweetness to just looking longingly in on a daughter who is far away and wondering how her day is going. Empty nest blues? (Or maybe Miner at the Dial-A-View.)
    - dagw 2y ago
      and just kind of scratched my head Can you at least conceive that some people might find it deeply creepy that someone can follow their every step, and equally creepy to be able to 'spy' on another person 24/7?
      - JKCalhoun 2y ago
        I can imagine it. (And in this case I think my sister and her husband simply hadn't yet adapted to the new technology they had at their disposal.)
      - giancarlostoro 2y ago
        Sure but those of us who have this sort of tracking for our loved ones enabled arent looking at that 24/7, and if you are referring to the corporations, well they already were. At least now they have made it useful to everyday people.
        throw_pm23 2y ago
        I find the corporations doing it less creepy than my loved ones. To be clear, I think both are bad, but for different reasons.
        giancarlostoro 2y ago
- hilbert42 2y ago
  "The dystopian bit is the corporation having this data." I find data collection and tracking disconcerting not because I'm doing anything nefarious, unlawful or something I'm ashamed of—my life is pretty boring and uninteresting—but because it has the effect of reducing one's autonomy. If one knows one's data is monitored and one is being tracked then one acts differently. For some, they'll make minor changes in behavior, for others a lot. Even for those who've no idea about others tracking or collecting data about them there's the broader issue of how society ought to be conducted. That's a very big issue I can't address here. Of course, the authoritarians amongst us would argue that monitoring is good thing as people won't be tempted to misbehave, commit crimes and such. I'd answer that by saying those who've nefarious intent will find ways of circumventing the surveillance so the net effect on society is negative as the 'innocent' are the onrs who are targeted without a good or just reason. Right, pretty much everyone has a mobile phone. What has truly surprised me is how many people are prepared to trade data and being surveiled for convenience. I often wonder if they make such conscious decisions knowing the full implications of that surveillance. I suspect most do not. Having a mobile phone it's inevitable I will be tracked by multiple entities from government to Google. My response is governed by how much I am prepared to trade privacy and autonomy for convenience and I reckon that's a large amount. Not having Google account and killing and or removing all Google services goes some considerable way but I'm under no illusion that Big Tech is still tracking me. That said, the info colllected wouldn't hold much value.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    > Having a mobile phone it's inevitable I will be tracked by multiple entities from government to Google Not, it's not. You could use a GNU/Linux phone with hardware kill switches for modem and WiFi/Bluetooth: Librem 5. This is what I do.
    - hilbert42 2y ago
      Right, I'm aware of that. In fact my phones are tighter than I mentioned. First, I've a number of phones, the one for calls is a feature/flip phone sans internet access. The others are internet-only smartphones and they're with a different ISP (I've multiple smartphones because I'm always mucking with the O/Ses and I must have at least one working). They're rooted and run either LineageOS or their native Android stripped of manufacturer bloatware and all Google stuff. Even then they always run with a firewall enabled, and the active apps are mostly from F-droid. WiFi is set to only reconnect manually and mobile data is off until needed. There's lots of other protections too such as no Chrome browser and JS is turned off by default on the browsers (I've three different browsers set for different jobs, none keep cookies between sessions). With ad protection and JS off I never see ads. I've no social media accounts, HN is pretty much it—and you can hardly call it social media. YouTube is viewed through NewPipe and so on. That's pretty tight. But it's easy for me because I've no need of social media and such. Right, my ISP can track me but I'm not in the drug trade or espionage so that's pretty irrelevant. I've a box of older phones and GNU/Linux is a pending project for them. I'm watching Librem and I'll likely go that way eventually. What I really want on my phones are manual click-type (air gap) off switches to switch the phone off in a split second, same with WiFi. Unfortunately, I've been spoiled forever. My ancient Nokia had a battery with a quick release button on the back. If say I was in a meeting and wanted to kill the phone quickly I could reach into my pocket and push the button and slide the battery abount 1cm which disconnected it—the phone was off in a fraction of a second, none of this nonsense waiting for the phone to shut down. I miss that feature with a passion and I want it back.
throw_pm23 2y ago
Watching your wife's commute also makes me uneasy. Maybe she wants to get you a surprise birthday present or something. Anyway, I wouldn't want to track someone like that (including children) or be tracked like that. EDIT: toned down the term I used.
- seunosewa 2y ago
  It's for safety.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    Of our women and children! Way to rationalize stalking away. They do the same in Chris Hansen's show. They are there only to check upon the safety of the minor.
    - EraYaN 2y ago
      I mean Apple even added a native feature to iMessage with full on tracking, exactly because of safety. Sure someone needs to send it manually but the whole point of Check-in (tracking someones progress home) is safety. Just too many shady blokes out on the street at night.
      - johnisgood 2y ago
        I understand. My girlfriend lives in LA, lot of shady people out in the streets during the daytime, too. I do not see how following her every step would help her though. We are usually in a call whenever she is outside, but I feel like even this is futile were anything bad to happen.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
verisimi 2y ago
As you immerse yourself in technology, you hand over privacy, signals to act, and the framing of reality to an adversarial third party. It is an adversarial relationship as corporations and governments are not interested in your well being (if they appear to this is merely the 'candy' to draw you in) - they are interested in divesting you from your resources (time, money). If they are able to intermediate reality for us, the very means to experience a natural/unmanipulated mode of existence will be no longer be available.
- xeonmc 2y ago
  Relevant SMBC: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-05-27 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-05-27
- CJefferson 2y ago
  What does any of that have to do with having “find my” enabled for my wife, as opposed to just owning an iPhone or android phone, which at this point almost all adults have, and give all their location data to billion dollar multinational corporations?
  - verisimi 2y ago
    I think the difference is between cheering on the loss of privacy and recognising the loss. The loss of privacy was something that was totally foreseeable (by me, at least) but embraced by the general population. The general embrace has meant that we all operate within a panopticon-like system - this itself modifies behaviour. No alternative choices are available - as a collective all have to 'follow the herd', with phones etc being essential to modern existence, despite the privacy reservations felt by many. I'm taking the opportunity to express the idea that it is possible to find appeal in this or that tech feature and to lose sight of the broader ramifications. Each incremental change can be justified (no batteries makes my phone slimmer, 'finding my' is useful, its good to know my blood pressure, etc) but to imagine that the rollout of these features is a natural unfolding of reality without preordained end goal (technocratic governance) is naive. Technocratic governance is not a goal that anyone would accept if it was proposed in a straightforward way - hence the duplicity, incrementalism, destruction of existing institutions, etc.
BiteCode_dev 2y ago
"He already has pneumonia, adding lung cancer doesn't matter"

afro88 2y ago

The dystopian bit is the corporation having this data, not you. And having this data for all users. Pretty much everyone has a mobile phone.

ilkke 2y ago
Isn't this the point they were trying to make? The corporations already have that data, it comes with the platform. The bit where you can use some of it for own purposes is not really the offending part.
- afro88 2y ago
  It's offending because it's complicit with the dystopian mass surveillance. Encouraging of it even. "I can find my keys when I lose them, so it's fine that a single corporation knows where billions of people are and what they are doing"
throw_pm23 2y ago
No, I think you having the data is also creepy. I wouldn't want my wife to follow all my steps, and neither would she.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  Our family (my daughters, wife) has had Find My paired on our phones since, well 2010 when it was introduced. We like it. I remember watching my sister and her husband calling each other frequently with, "How far are you away from home?" and just kind of scratched my head. (I think I have sinced talked them into enabling Find My.) When my wife or I want to call a daughter we can see immediately if they are at work or at home... things like that are nice. There's also an indescribable sweetness to just looking longingly in on a daughter who is far away and wondering how her day is going. Empty nest blues? (Or maybe Miner at the Dial-A-View.)
  - dagw 2y ago
    and just kind of scratched my head Can you at least conceive that some people might find it deeply creepy that someone can follow their every step, and equally creepy to be able to 'spy' on another person 24/7?
    - JKCalhoun 2y ago
      I can imagine it. (And in this case I think my sister and her husband simply hadn't yet adapted to the new technology they had at their disposal.)
    - giancarlostoro 2y ago
      Sure but those of us who have this sort of tracking for our loved ones enabled arent looking at that 24/7, and if you are referring to the corporations, well they already were. At least now they have made it useful to everyday people.
      - throw_pm23 2y ago
        I find the corporations doing it less creepy than my loved ones. To be clear, I think both are bad, but for different reasons.
        giancarlostoro 2y ago
hilbert42 2y ago
"The dystopian bit is the corporation having this data." I find data collection and tracking disconcerting not because I'm doing anything nefarious, unlawful or something I'm ashamed of—my life is pretty boring and uninteresting—but because it has the effect of reducing one's autonomy. If one knows one's data is monitored and one is being tracked then one acts differently. For some, they'll make minor changes in behavior, for others a lot. Even for those who've no idea about others tracking or collecting data about them there's the broader issue of how society ought to be conducted. That's a very big issue I can't address here. Of course, the authoritarians amongst us would argue that monitoring is good thing as people won't be tempted to misbehave, commit crimes and such. I'd answer that by saying those who've nefarious intent will find ways of circumventing the surveillance so the net effect on society is negative as the 'innocent' are the onrs who are targeted without a good or just reason. Right, pretty much everyone has a mobile phone. What has truly surprised me is how many people are prepared to trade data and being surveiled for convenience. I often wonder if they make such conscious decisions knowing the full implications of that surveillance. I suspect most do not. Having a mobile phone it's inevitable I will be tracked by multiple entities from government to Google. My response is governed by how much I am prepared to trade privacy and autonomy for convenience and I reckon that's a large amount. Not having Google account and killing and or removing all Google services goes some considerable way but I'm under no illusion that Big Tech is still tracking me. That said, the info colllected wouldn't hold much value.
- fsflover 2y ago
  > Having a mobile phone it's inevitable I will be tracked by multiple entities from government to Google Not, it's not. You could use a GNU/Linux phone with hardware kill switches for modem and WiFi/Bluetooth: Librem 5. This is what I do.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    Right, I'm aware of that. In fact my phones are tighter than I mentioned. First, I've a number of phones, the one for calls is a feature/flip phone sans internet access. The others are internet-only smartphones and they're with a different ISP (I've multiple smartphones because I'm always mucking with the O/Ses and I must have at least one working). They're rooted and run either LineageOS or their native Android stripped of manufacturer bloatware and all Google stuff. Even then they always run with a firewall enabled, and the active apps are mostly from F-droid. WiFi is set to only reconnect manually and mobile data is off until needed. There's lots of other protections too such as no Chrome browser and JS is turned off by default on the browsers (I've three different browsers set for different jobs, none keep cookies between sessions). With ad protection and JS off I never see ads. I've no social media accounts, HN is pretty much it—and you can hardly call it social media. YouTube is viewed through NewPipe and so on. That's pretty tight. But it's easy for me because I've no need of social media and such. Right, my ISP can track me but I'm not in the drug trade or espionage so that's pretty irrelevant. I've a box of older phones and GNU/Linux is a pending project for them. I'm watching Librem and I'll likely go that way eventually. What I really want on my phones are manual click-type (air gap) off switches to switch the phone off in a split second, same with WiFi. Unfortunately, I've been spoiled forever. My ancient Nokia had a battery with a quick release button on the back. If say I was in a meeting and wanted to kill the phone quickly I could reach into my pocket and push the button and slide the battery abount 1cm which disconnected it—the phone was off in a fraction of a second, none of this nonsense waiting for the phone to shut down. I miss that feature with a passion and I want it back.

throw_pm23 2y ago

Watching your wife's commute also makes me uneasy. Maybe she wants to get you a surprise birthday present or something. Anyway, I wouldn't want to track someone like that (including children) or be tracked like that. EDIT: toned down the term I used.

seunosewa 2y ago
It's for safety.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  Of our women and children! Way to rationalize stalking away. They do the same in Chris Hansen's show. They are there only to check upon the safety of the minor.
  - EraYaN 2y ago
    I mean Apple even added a native feature to iMessage with full on tracking, exactly because of safety. Sure someone needs to send it manually but the whole point of Check-in (tracking someones progress home) is safety. Just too many shady blokes out on the street at night.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      I understand. My girlfriend lives in LA, lot of shady people out in the streets during the daytime, too. I do not see how following her every step would help her though. We are usually in a call whenever she is outside, but I feel like even this is futile were anything bad to happen.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

verisimi 2y ago

As you immerse yourself in technology, you hand over privacy, signals to act, and the framing of reality to an adversarial third party. It is an adversarial relationship as corporations and governments are not interested in your well being (if they appear to this is merely the 'candy' to draw you in) - they are interested in divesting you from your resources (time, money). If they are able to intermediate reality for us, the very means to experience a natural/unmanipulated mode of existence will be no longer be available.

xeonmc 2y ago
Relevant SMBC: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-05-27 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-05-27
CJefferson 2y ago
What does any of that have to do with having “find my” enabled for my wife, as opposed to just owning an iPhone or android phone, which at this point almost all adults have, and give all their location data to billion dollar multinational corporations?
- verisimi 2y ago
  I think the difference is between cheering on the loss of privacy and recognising the loss. The loss of privacy was something that was totally foreseeable (by me, at least) but embraced by the general population. The general embrace has meant that we all operate within a panopticon-like system - this itself modifies behaviour. No alternative choices are available - as a collective all have to 'follow the herd', with phones etc being essential to modern existence, despite the privacy reservations felt by many. I'm taking the opportunity to express the idea that it is possible to find appeal in this or that tech feature and to lose sight of the broader ramifications. Each incremental change can be justified (no batteries makes my phone slimmer, 'finding my' is useful, its good to know my blood pressure, etc) but to imagine that the rollout of these features is a natural unfolding of reality without preordained end goal (technocratic governance) is naive. Technocratic governance is not a goal that anyone would accept if it was proposed in a straightforward way - hence the duplicity, incrementalism, destruction of existing institutions, etc.

BiteCode_dev 2y ago

"He already has pneumonia, adding lung cancer doesn't matter"