3 ms·

That is entry level for people who have no audience, the musicians equivalent of a paid internship and pays better than most entry level jobs with a bar so low,

That is entry level for people who have no audience, the musicians equivalent of a paid internship and pays better than most entry level jobs with a bar so low, three chords will get you through the door, two if you are good. Beyond the flat rate there is often a tip jar and merchandise sales, a $50 gig can easily bring in a few hundred. And you make connections, get more gigs, develop an audience, make a name, etc. Once you develop a name you get paid better and even start getting a cut of cover and bar sales. The weekly house band gigs are pretty much being paid for band practice. Unless you are working two full time jobs or the like it is easy money and affordable, broke teens working 30 hours a week washing dishes manage it. You may only make $50-$100 a gig starting out but you make it in an hour or two and as soon as you start drawing a crowd you will start getting better gigs.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
>the musicians equivalent of a paid internship and pays better than most entry level jobs what entry level jobs are you talking about? The horribly low Federal minimum wage is $7.25. minumum wage part time would come to $600/month. That's the extremely conservateive bar minimum I'd consider for anything to be "paying" (extremely poorly, but making something resembling cash flow). So with that metric: what scene are you in that brings in $600 in tips or 6-12 gigs a month? >You may only make $50-$100 a gig starting out but you make it in an hour or two and as soon as you start drawing a crowd you will start getting better gigs. Not even close to reasonably paying and you greatly underestimate how hard it is to draw a crowd these days. I'm treating this as a means to live, not some little hobby you do on the side. This isn't even close to an "entry level". my first gigs in tech had me making $12/hr for 20 hours of work during the school week, and people would rightfully call that way below my worth. But it passes my metric of $800/month, so it can be considered "entry level".
- ofalkaed 2y ago
  >So with that metric: what scene are you in that brings in $600 in tips or 6-12 gigs a month? Why only in tips? $100 weekly gigs are not terribly difficult to get these days especially since no one wants to do them anymore, that is $400 a month right there without tips or merchandise sales. 6-12 gigs a month is also not difficult to manage, two gigs a week is very doable and most every musician I know who did the weekly gig also did a show on the weekend somewhere else (weekly gigs are almost always mid week). Why does it have to be a single scene? almost as arbitrary as it being tips only. Beyond that if you play regularly you will get more gigs without trying including private parties and the like, you will get asked to sit in with other bands, be on their recordings, session work, etc, it all adds up. But I was referring to hourly rate, not monthly earnings. Entry level has nothing to do with pay, it's the level you enter at for the field and for some jobs this is an unpaid internship or or poorly paid apprenticeship, doesn't matter what you think it should be. Drawing a crowd is not difficult but you need to learn to read the audience so you can play to the audience first, one of those things the poor paying weekly gig is great for, you can't expect to draw an audience solely for being you.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    The method doesn't matter, just the fact you can get there. Maybe you are talented, but I reckon most people can't turn that musical talent into a $600/month hustle. >but you need to learn to read the audience so you can play to the audience firs And you uncovered the issue: musicians can't just use raw talent most of the time, they need to also be an entrepreneur. An entirely different set of skills independent from music itself. Thars why most indies in any industry can't make it. You need to mix two ideas of art and product which are almost diametrically opposed to one another. And it's a shifting formula. Because what's desired in art shifts constantly. It's a job in a job to get what's probably not even paying rent unless you're Low COL.
    - ofalkaed 2y ago
      >but I reckon most people can't turn that musical talent into a $600/month hustle. Most people can't do most things but the vast majority of people who succeed at their goals in life have one thing in common. Lots of people in this world and to make a living as a musician you only need to connect with a tiny fraction of a percent of those people. If you honestly like the music you make odds are there are enough people in the world to support you in making that music, but you need to find them if you want them to support you. >And you uncovered the issue I addressed this already, my use of the phrase "paid internship" was not accidental. >unless you're Low I lived in Duluth for awhile around the turn of the century. Low worked their asses off with endless touring for the better part of a decade to make their name and kept it up until Al and Mimi had their daughter, but Al kept playing constantly. Every Saturday it was The Black Eyed Snakes and a couple other bands at the NorShor, Tuesdays was experimental Tuesdays the experimental open mic he ran, plus sitting in with random bands, doing random shows, running his label, organizing shows, recording bands, doing all the stuff for Low, endless short lived side projects, being a dad, he never stopped working from what I could see. Charlie Parr spent a few years doing the poorly paying weekly gig every Wednesday at The Brewhouse, he got $50 and bottomless coffee to play for 3 hours to maybe a dozen mostly uninterested people until he figured out how to get them interested and then he packed the place every week and started making his name. Haley Bonar/McCallum used to serve me coffee and make me sandwiches at Amazing Grace, she put in years toiling away in obscurity before making it. Lots of good memories from those years, need to get back there, been too long.
almd 2y ago
Are you in a gig scene? The vast majority of the Brooklyn gig scene have service industry jobs, film sound jobs, or they play a lot of 3-4 hour event gigs (wedding bands but plus all events) on top of their own music projects. It’s not feasible to just do main music project gigs to start out in the slightest. And we all have the cheapest rents in ny.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

>the musicians equivalent of a paid internship and pays better than most entry level jobs what entry level jobs are you talking about? The horribly low Federal minimum wage is $7.25. minumum wage part time would come to $600/month. That's the extremely conservateive bar minimum I'd consider for anything to be "paying" (extremely poorly, but making something resembling cash flow). So with that metric: what scene are you in that brings in $600 in tips or 6-12 gigs a month? >You may only make $50-$100 a gig starting out but you make it in an hour or two and as soon as you start drawing a crowd you will start getting better gigs. Not even close to reasonably paying and you greatly underestimate how hard it is to draw a crowd these days. I'm treating this as a means to live, not some little hobby you do on the side. This isn't even close to an "entry level". my first gigs in tech had me making $12/hr for 20 hours of work during the school week, and people would rightfully call that way below my worth. But it passes my metric of $800/month, so it can be considered "entry level".

ofalkaed 2y ago
>So with that metric: what scene are you in that brings in $600 in tips or 6-12 gigs a month? Why only in tips? $100 weekly gigs are not terribly difficult to get these days especially since no one wants to do them anymore, that is $400 a month right there without tips or merchandise sales. 6-12 gigs a month is also not difficult to manage, two gigs a week is very doable and most every musician I know who did the weekly gig also did a show on the weekend somewhere else (weekly gigs are almost always mid week). Why does it have to be a single scene? almost as arbitrary as it being tips only. Beyond that if you play regularly you will get more gigs without trying including private parties and the like, you will get asked to sit in with other bands, be on their recordings, session work, etc, it all adds up. But I was referring to hourly rate, not monthly earnings. Entry level has nothing to do with pay, it's the level you enter at for the field and for some jobs this is an unpaid internship or or poorly paid apprenticeship, doesn't matter what you think it should be. Drawing a crowd is not difficult but you need to learn to read the audience so you can play to the audience first, one of those things the poor paying weekly gig is great for, you can't expect to draw an audience solely for being you.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  The method doesn't matter, just the fact you can get there. Maybe you are talented, but I reckon most people can't turn that musical talent into a $600/month hustle. >but you need to learn to read the audience so you can play to the audience firs And you uncovered the issue: musicians can't just use raw talent most of the time, they need to also be an entrepreneur. An entirely different set of skills independent from music itself. Thars why most indies in any industry can't make it. You need to mix two ideas of art and product which are almost diametrically opposed to one another. And it's a shifting formula. Because what's desired in art shifts constantly. It's a job in a job to get what's probably not even paying rent unless you're Low COL.
  - ofalkaed 2y ago
    >but I reckon most people can't turn that musical talent into a $600/month hustle. Most people can't do most things but the vast majority of people who succeed at their goals in life have one thing in common. Lots of people in this world and to make a living as a musician you only need to connect with a tiny fraction of a percent of those people. If you honestly like the music you make odds are there are enough people in the world to support you in making that music, but you need to find them if you want them to support you. >And you uncovered the issue I addressed this already, my use of the phrase "paid internship" was not accidental. >unless you're Low I lived in Duluth for awhile around the turn of the century. Low worked their asses off with endless touring for the better part of a decade to make their name and kept it up until Al and Mimi had their daughter, but Al kept playing constantly. Every Saturday it was The Black Eyed Snakes and a couple other bands at the NorShor, Tuesdays was experimental Tuesdays the experimental open mic he ran, plus sitting in with random bands, doing random shows, running his label, organizing shows, recording bands, doing all the stuff for Low, endless short lived side projects, being a dad, he never stopped working from what I could see. Charlie Parr spent a few years doing the poorly paying weekly gig every Wednesday at The Brewhouse, he got $50 and bottomless coffee to play for 3 hours to maybe a dozen mostly uninterested people until he figured out how to get them interested and then he packed the place every week and started making his name. Haley Bonar/McCallum used to serve me coffee and make me sandwiches at Amazing Grace, she put in years toiling away in obscurity before making it. Lots of good memories from those years, need to get back there, been too long.

almd 2y ago

Are you in a gig scene? The vast majority of the Brooklyn gig scene have service industry jobs, film sound jobs, or they play a lot of 3-4 hour event gigs (wedding bands but plus all events) on top of their own music projects. It’s not feasible to just do main music project gigs to start out in the slightest. And we all have the cheapest rents in ny.