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If you live in a democracy you have a vote and a voice to bring to the table. It’s wild to me that on this topic people seem to see their own governments as lar

If you live in a democracy you have a vote and a voice to bring to the table. It’s wild to me that on this topic people seem to see their own governments as largely equivalent to an outwardly adversarial if not explicitly hostile foreign power. I think it has been so long since the Pax-Americana West has dealt with an overtly hostile major power that we’ve collectively lost the concept that there can be real enemies with goals that run explicitly counter to our own.

School-Cotton 2y ago
[flagged]
- tyre 2y ago
  The Succession quote, “ I love you, but you are not serious people” comes to mind
- macNchz 2y ago
  I have plenty of beef with the American political system, but a loud group of motivated Americans absolutely has the ability to influence government decisions. If you, a citizen, decided you really cared about something, and gathered your like-minded fellow citizens to amplify your voice, you have a real chance at making an impact. That cannot be said in any way, shape, or form for a foreign power.
  - adamsb6 2y ago
    Lots of things change in China because people make a big stink about it. Probably the most notable are the lockdown protests, but there are countless examples of someone complaining about bad local governance and the national government coming in to fix it. Chinese social media is pretty vibrant with the exception that you can’t agitate for the fall of the government.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - csdreamer7 2y ago
      > Chinese social media is pretty vibrant with the exception that you can’t agitate for the fall of the government. Or Pooh Bear. Or South Park entirely after one episode of joking about China influencing Disney about Pooh Bear. Or failures of the central government. There are a lot of things banned online in China; this is so not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China
      - throw382824 2y ago
        There is a Winnie the Pooh ride in Shanghai Disney. I frequently see it mentioned in Chinese social media.
        m00x 2y ago
        You can't compare Pooh to Xi or you'll go to jail. You can do this in the US.
        adamsb6 2y ago
        You can buy Pooh merchandise in just about every mall in China. My son has a Pooh sweatshirt we bought at Uniqlo in China. You just can’t use it as a coded way to agitate against the government.
        csdreamer7 2y ago
        > Chinese social media is pretty vibrant with the exception that you can’t agitate for the fall of the government. Just because one criticizes or expresses anger at the central government does not mean that they want to induce mobs that will topple it like in Ukraine. I sincerely doubt China's future history books will talk about the Pooh Bear mobs that brought down Xi's government. More likely to complain about housing or jobs.
        2y ago
kaliqt 2y ago
[flagged]
- macNchz 2y ago
  It is a frustrating and often ineffectual system, but I simply cannot disagree more that I, as an American citizen, have equivalent powerlessness over the American government as I do over the Chinese government. There is a clear and storied history of people who cared about issues making real change to the American government and the lives of their fellow citizens. There are plenty of terrible things this country has done as well, but I’m not ready to give up on it yet and assume the Chinese government is equivalent.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- YZF 2y ago
  Support for Israel reflects the broad support in the American public. You'll find that elected officials generally reflect the opinions of those that voted for them. They likely disagree with your opinions and think Israel is right to use force to defend itself against the aggression of its enemies. That said these sorts of issues were way down the list in these elections and people have to compromise on some issues and vote on the aggregate. I do think that it's pretty clear the Republicans were and are a lot more understanding and publicly supportive of Israel vs. the Democrats. They didn't try to do a "both sides here" but clearly communicated who they consider to be the aggressor and who they consider to be defending themselves. That doesn't mean that every single republican voter feels that way but a lot of them do. The US also supported and brokered quite a few peace initiatives in the middle east. It's not fair to say it only acts to support wars.
  - faizmokh 2y ago
    It only serves to support wars, and most of the American public has historically been fine with it as long as the conflicts aren't on their own soil. However, they can no longer have that sense of security under Trump.
huimang 2y ago
"It’s wild to me that on this topic people seem to see their own governments as largely equivalent to an outwardly adversarial if not explicitly hostile foreign power". Because governments are adversarial to their general population in many cases. People live in reality, not in imagination land where the salt-of-the-earth type of people's voices are at all considered.
WhyNotHugo 2y ago
> If you live in a democracy you have a vote and a voice to bring to the table. In a theoretical direct democracy that would be true. But we’re talking about Canada and the US here.

School-Cotton 2y ago

[flagged]

tyre 2y ago
The Succession quote, “ I love you, but you are not serious people” comes to mind
macNchz 2y ago
I have plenty of beef with the American political system, but a loud group of motivated Americans absolutely has the ability to influence government decisions. If you, a citizen, decided you really cared about something, and gathered your like-minded fellow citizens to amplify your voice, you have a real chance at making an impact. That cannot be said in any way, shape, or form for a foreign power.
- adamsb6 2y ago
  Lots of things change in China because people make a big stink about it. Probably the most notable are the lockdown protests, but there are countless examples of someone complaining about bad local governance and the national government coming in to fix it. Chinese social media is pretty vibrant with the exception that you can’t agitate for the fall of the government.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - csdreamer7 2y ago
    > Chinese social media is pretty vibrant with the exception that you can’t agitate for the fall of the government. Or Pooh Bear. Or South Park entirely after one episode of joking about China influencing Disney about Pooh Bear. Or failures of the central government. There are a lot of things banned online in China; this is so not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China
    - throw382824 2y ago
      There is a Winnie the Pooh ride in Shanghai Disney. I frequently see it mentioned in Chinese social media.
      - m00x 2y ago
        You can't compare Pooh to Xi or you'll go to jail. You can do this in the US.
      - adamsb6 2y ago
        You can buy Pooh merchandise in just about every mall in China. My son has a Pooh sweatshirt we bought at Uniqlo in China. You just can’t use it as a coded way to agitate against the government.
        csdreamer7 2y ago
        > Chinese social media is pretty vibrant with the exception that you can’t agitate for the fall of the government. Just because one criticizes or expresses anger at the central government does not mean that they want to induce mobs that will topple it like in Ukraine. I sincerely doubt China's future history books will talk about the Pooh Bear mobs that brought down Xi's government. More likely to complain about housing or jobs.
      - 2y ago

kaliqt 2y ago

[flagged]

macNchz 2y ago
It is a frustrating and often ineffectual system, but I simply cannot disagree more that I, as an American citizen, have equivalent powerlessness over the American government as I do over the Chinese government. There is a clear and storied history of people who cared about issues making real change to the American government and the lives of their fellow citizens. There are plenty of terrible things this country has done as well, but I’m not ready to give up on it yet and assume the Chinese government is equivalent.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
YZF 2y ago
Support for Israel reflects the broad support in the American public. You'll find that elected officials generally reflect the opinions of those that voted for them. They likely disagree with your opinions and think Israel is right to use force to defend itself against the aggression of its enemies. That said these sorts of issues were way down the list in these elections and people have to compromise on some issues and vote on the aggregate. I do think that it's pretty clear the Republicans were and are a lot more understanding and publicly supportive of Israel vs. the Democrats. They didn't try to do a "both sides here" but clearly communicated who they consider to be the aggressor and who they consider to be defending themselves. That doesn't mean that every single republican voter feels that way but a lot of them do. The US also supported and brokered quite a few peace initiatives in the middle east. It's not fair to say it only acts to support wars.
- faizmokh 2y ago
  It only serves to support wars, and most of the American public has historically been fine with it as long as the conflicts aren't on their own soil. However, they can no longer have that sense of security under Trump.

huimang 2y ago

"It’s wild to me that on this topic people seem to see their own governments as largely equivalent to an outwardly adversarial if not explicitly hostile foreign power". Because governments are adversarial to their general population in many cases. People live in reality, not in imagination land where the salt-of-the-earth type of people's voices are at all considered.

WhyNotHugo 2y ago

> If you live in a democracy you have a vote and a voice to bring to the table. In a theoretical direct democracy that would be true. But we’re talking about Canada and the US here.