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Apple have name/address/credit-card/IMEI/IMSI tuples stored for every single Apple device. iMessage and FaceTime leak numbers, so they know who you talk to. The

Apple have name/address/credit-card/IMEI/IMSI tuples stored for every single Apple device. iMessage and FaceTime leak numbers, so they know who you talk to. They have real-time location data. They get constant pings when you do anything on your device. Their applications bypass firewalls and VPNs. If you don't opt out, they have full unencrypted device backups, chat logs, photos and files. They made a big fuss about protecting you from Facebook and Google, then built their own targeted ad network. Opting out of all tracking doesn't really do that. And even if you trust them despite all of this, they've repeatedly failed to protect users even from external threats. The endless parade of iMessage zero-click exploits was ridiculous and preventable, CKV only shipped this year and isn't even on by default, and so on. Apple have never been punished by the market for any of these things. The idea that they will "lose credibility" if they livestream your AI interactions to the NSA is ridiculous.

lurking_swe 2y ago
> They made a big fuss about protecting you from Facebook and Google, then built their own targeted ad network. What kind of targeting advertising am i getting from apple as a user of their products? Genuinely curious. I’ll wait. The rest of your comment may be factually accurate but it isn’t relevant for “normal” users, only those hyper aware of their privacy. Don’t get me wrong, i appreciate knowing this detail but you need to also realize that there are degrees to privacy.
- talldayo 2y ago
  > What kind of targeting advertising am i getting from apple as a user of their products? https://searchads.apple.com/ https://searchads.apple.com/ https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/control-how-apple-delivers-advertising-to-you-iphf60a6a256/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/control-how-apple-del... In the App Store and Apple News, your search and download history may be used to serve you relevant search ads. In Apple News and Stocks, ads are served based partly on what you read or follow. This includes publishers you’ve enabled notifications for and the type of publishing subscription you have.
  - luqtas 2y ago
    so just stocks, apps and news? their hardware quality unsnarl me with their performance per watt every time i need to flee from civilization and program Java on Nepalese caves for _THREE_ days without plugging into a power outlet. i accept the compromise and their word on my data! /s
  - lurking_swe 2y ago
    appreciate you engaging in the discussion in good faith. This seems pretty “boring”, but i agree it’s definitely targeting advertising.
  - avianlyric 2y ago
    Not sure about anyone else, but “we may use data from you choosing to use our apps, to target ads at you in our apps” just doesn’t quite hit the same as “we’ll track your web browsing habits via rats nest of social media buttons, and tracking pixels embedded in every major website, to sell highly targeted adverts on every major website, and give indiscriminate filtering capabilities capable of filtering to populations sizes as small as 4 or 5 individuals, to anyone that pays us a few cents”.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      It's up to you. Both companies are selling ads, and both companies know personalized ads sell better. Both are mediating their ad business with total control and arguing that it's unsafe to give competitors this info despite the fact that it's totally safe for them to collect it as a first-party. And the cherry on top, both Apple and Google are unfairly abusing their dominant position as platform-holders to collect data on their users solely for a marketing advantage. Feel whichever way you want about it, but I cut Apple out of my life years ago when they made it clear service revenue was their goal. Windows became insufferable after Microsoft tried the same thing, and my time using iOS/MacOS intermittently makes me very glad I didn't invest in an equally-degraded experience.
Tagbert 2y ago
They have not been punished because they have not abused their access to that data.
- sunnybeetroot 2y ago
  Some might call this abuse: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42069588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42069588
- lmm 2y ago
  There's no appreciable difference between how much abuse is being done by Apple, Google and Facebook. But somehow people fall over themselves to make excuses for them when it's Apple.
commandersaki 2y ago
> If you don't opt out, they have full unencrypted device backups, chat logs, photos and files. Also full disk encryption is opt-in for macOS. But the answer isn't that Apple wants you to be insecure, they just probably want to make it easier for their users to recover data if they forget a login password or backup password they set years ago. > real-time location data Locations are end to end encrypted.
- dwaite 2y ago
  > Also full disk encryption is opt-in for macOS. But the answer isn't that Apple wants you to be insecure, they just probably want to make it easier for their users to recover data if they forget a login password or backup password they set years ago. "If you have a Mac with Apple silicon or an Apple T2 Security Chip, your data is encrypted automatically." The non-removable storage is I believe encrypted using a key specific to the Secure Enclave which cleared on factory reset. APFS does allow for other levels of protection though (such as protecting a significant portion of the system with a key derived from initial password/passcode, which is only enabled while the screen is unlocked).
  - commandersaki 2y ago
    Yeah its a bit nuanced. You're correct encryption is automatic, but the key is unprotected unless you enable FileVault, which is the opt-in bit I was talking about. So by default it is easy to recover data on a mac.
threeseed 2y ago
It's disingenuous to compare Apple's advertising to Facebook and Google. Apple does first party advertising for two relatively minuscule apps. Facebook and Google power the majority of the world's online advertising, have multiple data sharing agreements, widely deployed tracking pixels, allow for browser fingerprinting and are deeply integrated into almost all ecommerce platforms and sites.

lurking_swe 2y ago

> They made a big fuss about protecting you from Facebook and Google, then built their own targeted ad network. What kind of targeting advertising am i getting from apple as a user of their products? Genuinely curious. I’ll wait. The rest of your comment may be factually accurate but it isn’t relevant for “normal” users, only those hyper aware of their privacy. Don’t get me wrong, i appreciate knowing this detail but you need to also realize that there are degrees to privacy.

talldayo 2y ago
> What kind of targeting advertising am i getting from apple as a user of their products? https://searchads.apple.com/ https://searchads.apple.com/ https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/control-how-apple-delivers-advertising-to-you-iphf60a6a256/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/control-how-apple-del... In the App Store and Apple News, your search and download history may be used to serve you relevant search ads. In Apple News and Stocks, ads are served based partly on what you read or follow. This includes publishers you’ve enabled notifications for and the type of publishing subscription you have.
- luqtas 2y ago
  so just stocks, apps and news? their hardware quality unsnarl me with their performance per watt every time i need to flee from civilization and program Java on Nepalese caves for _THREE_ days without plugging into a power outlet. i accept the compromise and their word on my data! /s
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  appreciate you engaging in the discussion in good faith. This seems pretty “boring”, but i agree it’s definitely targeting advertising.
- avianlyric 2y ago
  Not sure about anyone else, but “we may use data from you choosing to use our apps, to target ads at you in our apps” just doesn’t quite hit the same as “we’ll track your web browsing habits via rats nest of social media buttons, and tracking pixels embedded in every major website, to sell highly targeted adverts on every major website, and give indiscriminate filtering capabilities capable of filtering to populations sizes as small as 4 or 5 individuals, to anyone that pays us a few cents”.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    It's up to you. Both companies are selling ads, and both companies know personalized ads sell better. Both are mediating their ad business with total control and arguing that it's unsafe to give competitors this info despite the fact that it's totally safe for them to collect it as a first-party. And the cherry on top, both Apple and Google are unfairly abusing their dominant position as platform-holders to collect data on their users solely for a marketing advantage. Feel whichever way you want about it, but I cut Apple out of my life years ago when they made it clear service revenue was their goal. Windows became insufferable after Microsoft tried the same thing, and my time using iOS/MacOS intermittently makes me very glad I didn't invest in an equally-degraded experience.

Tagbert 2y ago

They have not been punished because they have not abused their access to that data.

sunnybeetroot 2y ago
Some might call this abuse: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42069588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42069588
lmm 2y ago
There's no appreciable difference between how much abuse is being done by Apple, Google and Facebook. But somehow people fall over themselves to make excuses for them when it's Apple.

commandersaki 2y ago

> If you don't opt out, they have full unencrypted device backups, chat logs, photos and files. Also full disk encryption is opt-in for macOS. But the answer isn't that Apple wants you to be insecure, they just probably want to make it easier for their users to recover data if they forget a login password or backup password they set years ago. > real-time location data Locations are end to end encrypted.

dwaite 2y ago
> Also full disk encryption is opt-in for macOS. But the answer isn't that Apple wants you to be insecure, they just probably want to make it easier for their users to recover data if they forget a login password or backup password they set years ago. "If you have a Mac with Apple silicon or an Apple T2 Security Chip, your data is encrypted automatically." The non-removable storage is I believe encrypted using a key specific to the Secure Enclave which cleared on factory reset. APFS does allow for other levels of protection though (such as protecting a significant portion of the system with a key derived from initial password/passcode, which is only enabled while the screen is unlocked).
- commandersaki 2y ago
  Yeah its a bit nuanced. You're correct encryption is automatic, but the key is unprotected unless you enable FileVault, which is the opt-in bit I was talking about. So by default it is easy to recover data on a mac.

threeseed 2y ago

It's disingenuous to compare Apple's advertising to Facebook and Google. Apple does first party advertising for two relatively minuscule apps. Facebook and Google power the majority of the world's online advertising, have multiple data sharing agreements, widely deployed tracking pixels, allow for browser fingerprinting and are deeply integrated into almost all ecommerce platforms and sites.