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I admire these people who are willing to live in a 10-person dorm room while setting up their business, but the fact three "Hacker Hostels" have sprung up feels

I admire these people who are willing to live in a 10-person dorm room while setting up their business, but the fact three "Hacker Hostels" have sprung up feels like a symptom of SF & SV being so over-hyped and incorrectly positioned as the only place innovation will occur with less friction. Am I wrong or just missing something? What real significant tangible benefit are these people getting that compels them to live like this and pay a relatively high cost for the privilege? $1,200/month or less gets you your own private room in a shared apartment in NYC, Boston, or just about anywhere else.

qiqing 14y ago
The article really misrepresents Chez JJ. We have a professional cleaner come in every week and we cover food, including an organic vegetable subscription box from Farm Fresh. We're not like frat boys -- this is our home and we choose to let people in.
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  I didn't necessarily think that it's dirty (although the article implies that it's untidy). I had no idea food was thrown in apart from the occasional cooked meal. If food is included, am I going to be meeting > 2,000 calories a day (or whatever the recommended is)? From the Airbnb listing it looks like only breakfast is included, not every meal like your comment suggests. My original point really wasn't about cleanliness or food, but about the true, measurable value that SF/SV brings. I don't know why people are compelled to travel from (for example) Toronto to live in a single dorm room with nine strangers, some or all of whom may snore. I imagine the people who stay will likely have their freedoms greatly restricted, even down to their choice of sleep schedule. I can only imagine the alternative would result in people disturbing each others' sleep. The whole "gotta be in SV/SF" mentality seems to be a product of massive amounts of hype that's driving these people to live in such relatively poor conditions for a relatively high amount. I just don't understand why people are acting like this.
  - deleted 14y ago
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  - jocelynscrayons 14y ago
    hahahah, I wish I could afford to feed every guest for every meal, but we haven't reached that level of success yet. For now, only breakfast and the Farm Fresh veges are available. Quiet hours start after 10 PM or as soon as people start heading to bed. We do occasionally have snorers, and provide ear plugs. Everyone seems to do well on multiple sleep schedules so long as late movement towards bed is sufficiently quiet. We choose our locations based on easy access to public transportation and easy access to hacker circles. The prices are higher because the demand is higher. There are community houses everywhere, and I occasionally see rooms for rent in East Palo Alto community houses. There are many around, and it isn't just for hype. It's very expensive to live here and it gets easier when living in groups.
    - kintamanimatt 14y ago
      Regardless, this is an interesting phenomenon and I wonder whether the luster of SF and SV will continue or correct. The fact there's a market for bunk beds in a 10-person room is intriguing. I'm not entirely convinced of the merits of this 10-person dorm for twice the cost of a room on Craigslist in the same neighborhood, but my skepticism (a deep, penetrating British skepticism!) is for something I've not tried.
      - wilfra 14y ago
        It's not twice the cost of rooms on craigslist in the same neighborhood. Those require a lease, a deposit, setting up and paying for utilities etc. etc. etc. If you want to compare it to something, compare it to airbnb listings - and this is perfectly in line with market rates. Typical rooms cost $80-120+ if you want your own room. A shared room at $40 makes a lot of sense - if you are ok with those living conditions.
        kintamanimatt 14y ago
runako 14y ago
I agree with your larger point 100%. >> $1,200/month or less gets you your own private room in a shared apartment in NYC, Boston In much of the US, $1,200/mo will buy you a house (or rent one). $1,200/mo is a fairly high rent for a 1-bedroom in much of the US; a private room in a shared apartment would obviously be correspondingly less.
- ntkachov 14y ago
  This is true, However you do miss out the on the people. I would guess something like this provides much more support for the participants than a simple 1 bedroom. I feel that being surrounded by like minded people working towards a familiar goal is far more valuable than an apartment.
  - deleted 14y ago
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  - kintamanimatt 14y ago
    I'd love it if a (decent) study were done comparing the success rates of an entrepreneur in a start up hub, compared with those in areas without a start-up scene. I wonder if there really is a measurable difference that backs the hype.
    - dannyr 14y ago
      Dude, seriously, where have you been the last decade? This is like asking the success rate of an actor/actress in LA versus in other cities.
      - kintamanimatt 14y ago
        Well, no, because if we're talking about an internet startup, location is significantly less important. The nature of acting requires a physical presence in a particular location (i.e. the stage), but an internet-based startup has no such requirement. I can just as easily create a company in Amsterdam as I could from SF. One of the major benefits that's routinely touted is access to VC/angel. Something that most people forget is that the odds of getting such investment are relatively small and most start-ups thrive without it.
deleted 14y ago
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etler 14y ago
The thing about AirBnB is that these are not supposed to be permanent residences. Yes, $1,200/month can get you a private room in a house with other people but AirBnB is for travelers who are going to a new location they haven't been to before, or are just passing through. It's very hard to find housing if you're going to be somewhere for just a few months, so AirBnB is there for those short stays and it's better and cheaper than a hotel, and a good way to meet people in the area. You shouldn't really compare it with finding a place for good because that's not what it's for. I live in the area and have tried to find a short stay for a previous 3 month internship. It's very hard, and I had the luxury of being able to stay with my parents while I looked as I grew up within driving distance. However, I would imagine doing that from a distance would be next to impossible.
- zgm 14y ago
  I concur. I am currently staying at the Mountain View house while doing a summer internship at a startup. It is difficult to find short-term housing on craigslist or other rental sites as most landlords are looking for long-term leases. Luckily, I was able to stay with friends while looking for housing and was fortunate to find an open spot at Chez JJ. Though $1000/month can seem pricey, for the location (biking distance to my office, grocery stores, YC, and HackerDojo) and community of hackers and entrepreneurs, you would be hard pressed to find a more ideal housing arrangement.
dannyr 14y ago
It's really hard to know what the real benefit of SF & SV without being here. Why do people go to clubs to dance? You can do it anywhere even at home, by yourself. But it's just more fun to do with other people who love to dance too. I go to cafes here and it's not unusual to see people coding, discussing startups, practicing their pitch. Almost everybody I know is building something. Not working for a big company is like a badge of honor. Nobody is claiming that the Bay Area is the only place for innovation but it is where most innovation happen.
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  > Why do people go to clubs to dance? You can do it anywhere even at home, by yourself. But it's just more fun to do with other people who love to dance too. That's honestly the most compelling argument I've heard for SF/SV.
  - throwaway1979 14y ago
    As someone who lived in the Bay area and moved away, I can affirm to that. There is a vibe in the Bay area that you don't get in other places. I sort of felt it in a few areas of Manhattan (near NYU and DUMBO). But outside of these parts, I don't feel it. I moved out of NYC ... I'm less than an hour away. The scene feels DEAD. That said, I'm not planning on moving to SF/SV any time soon. I'm a bit older now ... getting ready to nest, buy a house, etc. I have friends who have bought starter homes in the Bay for the price of mansions in other parts of the US. I might be making a mistake but that's my plan too.
    - tryitnow 14y ago
      I can't see how you would be making a mistake. To each their own. I love the Bay not just for the business environment, but for the cultural environment, which is just about as unique as the entrepreneurial environment. I feel confident that I could meet dozens of new cool and interesting people a month if I wanted to. I don't know if I would click as much with people in other locales (not even NYC - too neurotic for me).
azza-bazoo 14y ago
I don't think it's a symptom of hype in the Valley. (The high rents in general, sure. But not the hacker hostels.) As others mentioned, the whole point of being in the Valley in the first place is to be around other people doing similar things, because it's more fun that way. But if you just step off a plane at SFO and walk around, you're not guaranteed to find people doing startups, especially if you don't know which coffee shops they frequent. Speaking from experience, staying at somewhere like Chez JJ means an instant connection to a community of smart and similarly-inclined people. It really is great for folks new to the Valley ("on the bottom rung"), and I think the article got at least that point correct.
larrys 14y ago
"What real significant tangible benefit are these people getting that compels them to live like this and pay a relatively high cost for the privilege?" There is a significant "plan b" by doing that that you have to consider as well as a benefit over being somewhere else because of the concentration of like minded people. Many who will go on to achieve success. You are around others who are doing things and you are making connections. If your thing doesn't work, you know people who now know you and you can get involved with them if your idea doesn't work out if they feel you have talent. (And vice versa). That's a huge benefit.
tryitnow 14y ago
Are we sure it's really $1,200/month? Monthly rates may be a lot lower - if the renter agrees to a longer term lease. Nightly rates are a lot more because the hostel managers have to manage capacity more aggressively. The article just mentioned it's $40/night - that's not too bad considering no long term lease is involved. I absolutely believe it's worth it. In fact, I predict the hostels will increase their price as they become more popular (they should send a thank you note to the NYT).
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  I sorry, I made a mistake. The monthly rate isn't $1,200 but $1,100. I'm not sure it is worth it and cramming 10 people in a room for $40/night feels exploitative, particularly as there are many options nearby that cost less and come with a private room. [1] They're making a decent amount of cash from this and they're shrewd business people if they're able to rent out a single, sparse room for somewhere between $11,000 to $12,000 per month, just by positioning it as for hackers! I have a lot of respect for their marketing and business savvy! [1] http://www.airbnb.com/s/Castro--San-Francisco--CA?room_types[]=Private+room&price_min=10&price_max=40 http://www.airbnb.com/s/Castro--San-Francisco--CA?room_types...
apurvamehta 14y ago
> $1,200/month or less gets you your own private room in a shared apartment in NYC, Boston, or just about anywhere else. $1400/month gets a one-bed apartment in Mountain View. I used to pay $700/mo for a private room and bathroom in a 2 bed apartment in Mountain View. Those prices seem over hyped.
fitandfunction 14y ago
The peer effect of seeing a lot of other people working hard around you. I definitely benefit from proximity to other hard-working people. Particularly when you're embarking down the vague, ill-defined path of launching an idea ... it can help a lot to know that you're not the only one.
brown9-2 14y ago
Agreed. 1200/month does not sound like "cheap rent" as the article calls it.

qiqing 14y ago

The article really misrepresents Chez JJ. We have a professional cleaner come in every week and we cover food, including an organic vegetable subscription box from Farm Fresh. We're not like frat boys -- this is our home and we choose to let people in.

kintamanimatt 14y ago
I didn't necessarily think that it's dirty (although the article implies that it's untidy). I had no idea food was thrown in apart from the occasional cooked meal. If food is included, am I going to be meeting > 2,000 calories a day (or whatever the recommended is)? From the Airbnb listing it looks like only breakfast is included, not every meal like your comment suggests. My original point really wasn't about cleanliness or food, but about the true, measurable value that SF/SV brings. I don't know why people are compelled to travel from (for example) Toronto to live in a single dorm room with nine strangers, some or all of whom may snore. I imagine the people who stay will likely have their freedoms greatly restricted, even down to their choice of sleep schedule. I can only imagine the alternative would result in people disturbing each others' sleep. The whole "gotta be in SV/SF" mentality seems to be a product of massive amounts of hype that's driving these people to live in such relatively poor conditions for a relatively high amount. I just don't understand why people are acting like this.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jocelynscrayons 14y ago
  hahahah, I wish I could afford to feed every guest for every meal, but we haven't reached that level of success yet. For now, only breakfast and the Farm Fresh veges are available. Quiet hours start after 10 PM or as soon as people start heading to bed. We do occasionally have snorers, and provide ear plugs. Everyone seems to do well on multiple sleep schedules so long as late movement towards bed is sufficiently quiet. We choose our locations based on easy access to public transportation and easy access to hacker circles. The prices are higher because the demand is higher. There are community houses everywhere, and I occasionally see rooms for rent in East Palo Alto community houses. There are many around, and it isn't just for hype. It's very expensive to live here and it gets easier when living in groups.
  - kintamanimatt 14y ago
    Regardless, this is an interesting phenomenon and I wonder whether the luster of SF and SV will continue or correct. The fact there's a market for bunk beds in a 10-person room is intriguing. I'm not entirely convinced of the merits of this 10-person dorm for twice the cost of a room on Craigslist in the same neighborhood, but my skepticism (a deep, penetrating British skepticism!) is for something I've not tried.
    - wilfra 14y ago
      It's not twice the cost of rooms on craigslist in the same neighborhood. Those require a lease, a deposit, setting up and paying for utilities etc. etc. etc. If you want to compare it to something, compare it to airbnb listings - and this is perfectly in line with market rates. Typical rooms cost $80-120+ if you want your own room. A shared room at $40 makes a lot of sense - if you are ok with those living conditions.
      - kintamanimatt 14y ago

runako 14y ago

I agree with your larger point 100%. >> $1,200/month or less gets you your own private room in a shared apartment in NYC, Boston In much of the US, $1,200/mo will buy you a house (or rent one). $1,200/mo is a fairly high rent for a 1-bedroom in much of the US; a private room in a shared apartment would obviously be correspondingly less.

ntkachov 14y ago
This is true, However you do miss out the on the people. I would guess something like this provides much more support for the participants than a simple 1 bedroom. I feel that being surrounded by like minded people working towards a familiar goal is far more valuable than an apartment.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  I'd love it if a (decent) study were done comparing the success rates of an entrepreneur in a start up hub, compared with those in areas without a start-up scene. I wonder if there really is a measurable difference that backs the hype.
  - dannyr 14y ago
    Dude, seriously, where have you been the last decade? This is like asking the success rate of an actor/actress in LA versus in other cities.
    - kintamanimatt 14y ago
      Well, no, because if we're talking about an internet startup, location is significantly less important. The nature of acting requires a physical presence in a particular location (i.e. the stage), but an internet-based startup has no such requirement. I can just as easily create a company in Amsterdam as I could from SF. One of the major benefits that's routinely touted is access to VC/angel. Something that most people forget is that the odds of getting such investment are relatively small and most start-ups thrive without it.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

etler 14y ago

The thing about AirBnB is that these are not supposed to be permanent residences. Yes, $1,200/month can get you a private room in a house with other people but AirBnB is for travelers who are going to a new location they haven't been to before, or are just passing through. It's very hard to find housing if you're going to be somewhere for just a few months, so AirBnB is there for those short stays and it's better and cheaper than a hotel, and a good way to meet people in the area. You shouldn't really compare it with finding a place for good because that's not what it's for. I live in the area and have tried to find a short stay for a previous 3 month internship. It's very hard, and I had the luxury of being able to stay with my parents while I looked as I grew up within driving distance. However, I would imagine doing that from a distance would be next to impossible.

zgm 14y ago
I concur. I am currently staying at the Mountain View house while doing a summer internship at a startup. It is difficult to find short-term housing on craigslist or other rental sites as most landlords are looking for long-term leases. Luckily, I was able to stay with friends while looking for housing and was fortunate to find an open spot at Chez JJ. Though $1000/month can seem pricey, for the location (biking distance to my office, grocery stores, YC, and HackerDojo) and community of hackers and entrepreneurs, you would be hard pressed to find a more ideal housing arrangement.

dannyr 14y ago

It's really hard to know what the real benefit of SF & SV without being here. Why do people go to clubs to dance? You can do it anywhere even at home, by yourself. But it's just more fun to do with other people who love to dance too. I go to cafes here and it's not unusual to see people coding, discussing startups, practicing their pitch. Almost everybody I know is building something. Not working for a big company is like a badge of honor. Nobody is claiming that the Bay Area is the only place for innovation but it is where most innovation happen.

kintamanimatt 14y ago
> Why do people go to clubs to dance? You can do it anywhere even at home, by yourself. But it's just more fun to do with other people who love to dance too. That's honestly the most compelling argument I've heard for SF/SV.
- throwaway1979 14y ago
  As someone who lived in the Bay area and moved away, I can affirm to that. There is a vibe in the Bay area that you don't get in other places. I sort of felt it in a few areas of Manhattan (near NYU and DUMBO). But outside of these parts, I don't feel it. I moved out of NYC ... I'm less than an hour away. The scene feels DEAD. That said, I'm not planning on moving to SF/SV any time soon. I'm a bit older now ... getting ready to nest, buy a house, etc. I have friends who have bought starter homes in the Bay for the price of mansions in other parts of the US. I might be making a mistake but that's my plan too.
  - tryitnow 14y ago
    I can't see how you would be making a mistake. To each their own. I love the Bay not just for the business environment, but for the cultural environment, which is just about as unique as the entrepreneurial environment. I feel confident that I could meet dozens of new cool and interesting people a month if I wanted to. I don't know if I would click as much with people in other locales (not even NYC - too neurotic for me).

azza-bazoo 14y ago

I don't think it's a symptom of hype in the Valley. (The high rents in general, sure. But not the hacker hostels.) As others mentioned, the whole point of being in the Valley in the first place is to be around other people doing similar things, because it's more fun that way. But if you just step off a plane at SFO and walk around, you're not guaranteed to find people doing startups, especially if you don't know which coffee shops they frequent. Speaking from experience, staying at somewhere like Chez JJ means an instant connection to a community of smart and similarly-inclined people. It really is great for folks new to the Valley ("on the bottom rung"), and I think the article got at least that point correct.

larrys 14y ago

"What real significant tangible benefit are these people getting that compels them to live like this and pay a relatively high cost for the privilege?" There is a significant "plan b" by doing that that you have to consider as well as a benefit over being somewhere else because of the concentration of like minded people. Many who will go on to achieve success. You are around others who are doing things and you are making connections. If your thing doesn't work, you know people who now know you and you can get involved with them if your idea doesn't work out if they feel you have talent. (And vice versa). That's a huge benefit.

tryitnow 14y ago

Are we sure it's really $1,200/month? Monthly rates may be a lot lower - if the renter agrees to a longer term lease. Nightly rates are a lot more because the hostel managers have to manage capacity more aggressively. The article just mentioned it's $40/night - that's not too bad considering no long term lease is involved. I absolutely believe it's worth it. In fact, I predict the hostels will increase their price as they become more popular (they should send a thank you note to the NYT).

kintamanimatt 14y ago
I sorry, I made a mistake. The monthly rate isn't $1,200 but $1,100. I'm not sure it is worth it and cramming 10 people in a room for $40/night feels exploitative, particularly as there are many options nearby that cost less and come with a private room. [1] They're making a decent amount of cash from this and they're shrewd business people if they're able to rent out a single, sparse room for somewhere between $11,000 to $12,000 per month, just by positioning it as for hackers! I have a lot of respect for their marketing and business savvy! [1] http://www.airbnb.com/s/Castro--San-Francisco--CA?room_types[]=Private+room&price_min=10&price_max=40 http://www.airbnb.com/s/Castro--San-Francisco--CA?room_types...

apurvamehta 14y ago

> $1,200/month or less gets you your own private room in a shared apartment in NYC, Boston, or just about anywhere else. $1400/month gets a one-bed apartment in Mountain View. I used to pay $700/mo for a private room and bathroom in a 2 bed apartment in Mountain View. Those prices seem over hyped.

fitandfunction 14y ago

The peer effect of seeing a lot of other people working hard around you. I definitely benefit from proximity to other hard-working people. Particularly when you're embarking down the vague, ill-defined path of launching an idea ... it can help a lot to know that you're not the only one.

brown9-2 14y ago

Agreed. 1200/month does not sound like "cheap rent" as the article calls it.