10 ms·

"Don't f***ing trim the copy"

54 points by jessepollak 14y ago

ars 14y ago
Well? Finish the story! What happened after that? Did you apologize and change it? Leave it? How did she react afterward? How's your relationship now? Were you able to fix things between the two of you? I know the rest of your story doesn't really have anything to do with the message you are giving, but I like my stories complete. :)
- thetabyte 14y ago
  Well, it's only about a day old, but the conversation between him, her, and the rest of us went well from there. We're working on v2 right now :) I don't really think this is going to tear us apart--I was actually the cause of a worse mishap a bit earlier, and that ended much better after clearer, and apologetic communication. The point stands though, it is important that you stay considerate in situations like these, so they don't become something that jeopardize your team dynamic. Jesse immediately responded in an incredibly understanding and apologetic manner, and now we're working together to fix things, as we should! -Jordan (1 of 5)
nottombrown 14y ago
First reaction to the current site - There's too much copy. It's good to know your strengths and to be willing to lean on the people that you trust. It's bad to be a pushover. Do you think she got mad because your change made the product less compelling or because she felt it undermined her status?
- aneth4 14y ago
  I agree. The copy needs trimming. However, the article is right. If you delegate something to someone, you should discuss with them before (or occasionally after) overriding their decisions. If you do that too often, they may not be compatible with your vision for that position, in which case you should find someone who is.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
Always useful advice. If you delegate, then you delegate. That said, when someone changes your work without telling you its always useful to go in trying to learn. Both of you come away with a better understanding that way.
nickjp 14y ago
It probably wasn't a good idea to edit the copy without consulting others, but I've dealt with situations where I've had to decide what to do with copy that's long and rambling to the point of being unreadable. Something needs to be done in those situations. When a website reads like a novel, it's time to have a discussion, figure out what your users are there for, and determine whether you might be failing to promptly fulfill those needs. There's nothing wrong with providing ample information on a website, but it needs to be organized in a way that delivers the right amount of the right information to the right people. If you can't do that, you're probably delivering a mess of an experience for the majority.
molecule 14y ago
> Treat others the way you want to be treated > It’s a saying I learned in Quaker school, but it applies to almost every situation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
bootload 14y ago
"... It’s a saying I learned in Quaker school, but it applies to almost every situation. I don’t want to be undermined, so I shouldn’t undermine anyone else—consciously or unconsciously. ..." It's all about the goal. Be flexible. To get there someone has have responsibility to make a final call. If it's technical, a right or wrong answer can be made on merit. For non-technical or subjective decision defer to founder(s) experience, training or gut feel and back this decision up with measurement and make adjustments if needed.
josephcooney 14y ago
I disagree. If you're going to work as a team no-one can 'own' something entirely. What if you spotted a typo? Would it be OK to change the copy then? Everyone needs to be mature enough to trust that the other person wasn't being malicious, and be prepared to talk about things that they don't disagree with. And iterate. The words weren't carved onto a stone tablet and then launched into space. They're on the internet and can be changed in a heartbeat.
- kevinburke 14y ago
  Sure, but the OP's main problem was that he didn't communicate his opinions back to the person who'd worked so long on the copy.
  - josephcooney 14y ago
    I don't think they should need to. You set up a situation where we can't touch the home-page without consulting Mike, or we can't change that data access code without talking to Sue about it. Do stuff. Make mistakes. Iterate.
    - jklp 14y ago
      I disagree. If your team is senior enough, I think it is very important to give people delegated areas of responsibility. I've found people start to take pride in their work when this happens, because they know the buck now stops at them, and any outcome (positive or negative) is their own doing. If you have everyone putting fingers in everyone else's work, why would you want to spend a week working on something when you know someone could just come in and undo it on a whim? In saying that, it doesn't mean people shouldn't take feedback, though eventually, you'll have to start trusting your team to make decisions for the business. As a founder, you can't go around making every decision for your company, it doesn't scale that way.
      - josephcooney 14y ago
        At a certain size, maybe, but for a 2-week seat-of-your-pants getting ready to pitch to VCs sprint I don't think delegated areas of responsibility, or exclusive ownership is warranted or healthy. I think if you go and stomp over someone elses good work you need to be responsible for that, but I think you need a team/organisation where you have that freedom. By the downvotes it looks like I'm the odd one out here. Whatever.
torquebomb 14y ago
Don'y f*ing use hackernews as your blog's comments platform
zemaj 14y ago
Eh, I think your co-founder has the wrong attitude here. I edit the copy all the time my co-founder writes. Sometimes I tell him, sometimes I just deploy if I'm in the middle of pushing something out. Building startups is all about iteration. One person sees something from one point of view, the next sees it from another. As each person adds their improvements you get a much better final product - you wouldn't be changing it if you didn't see something wrong with it. By the same token, I totally accept when the things I've spent hours pouring over get thrown out the door. We recently had a design review where someone said one of the elements I put hours into looked like a 3 year old had drawn it (they didn't know it was done by me, they thought it was outsourced). It was the kind of style I was going for, but that reaction made me realise it totally wasn't suitable for the site. I was a little hurt of-course, made a joke about it and brushed it off. We now have a completely new version of this page that's way better than my original vision. Wrong response: “You fucking trimmed my copy.” “I don’t want to get mad but I sat there for FIVE HOURS crafting that yesterday, there’s a reason for every word.” Right response: “I see you changed my copy. What improvements were you trying to make? I felt point x,y,z were important and you left them out. If you were trying to make it shorter, here's a shorter version that includes the more important points.“
- thetabyte 14y ago
  The less was less about the fact that he did change it, it was the fact that, by oversight, he changed it, and deployed it live without once discussing or even mentioning the changes, even after the fact. She was understanding of the change and we're working on a happy medium (just as you said we should), it was just a shock to find something she'd put so much effort into go live completely different than she expected. That kind of communication among founders is vital. -Jordan (1 of 5)
  - dredmorbius 14y ago
    Sure, communication helps and matters. His cofounder overreacted, and in a bad way. This isn't a healthy relationship.
    - 14y ago
Androsynth 14y ago
My first thought when I hear 'theres a reason for every word.': amateur. Don't take yourself so seriously. Unless you've literally tested every word, theres not a reason for every word. You are just flinging paint on a wall and calling it art. (side note: you're young, its not bad being called an amateur. It's a good time for you to get rid of bad habits)
- Confusion 14y ago
  Yeah. And the second thought is: hand it off for a second opinion earlier. Writing copy is teamwork, except for experts at writing copy (exactly as writing code is teamwork, requiring review by someone else and refactoring).
Blank_ 14y ago
When I went to university, there was a design class I had to take. He was known to be pretty tough when critiquing people's work. In the first class one of the things he told us was: "It's not personal, it's just business". I find that it's generally helpful to keep this mindset. I try to keep in mind, it's really the result of my work (the final product) they are criticizing, it's not really me that they are trying to attack. Sure, I spent nights on something, but in the end if it looks bad, it looks bad. I can choose to feel hurt for a few seconds, over it, and make it better the next time around.
- capsule_toy 14y ago
  I would much rather the phrase be something like, "don't take it too personally, we're all on the same team and even though I'm harsh, the goal is to improve your work." I know it doesn't roll off the tongue like "it's not personal, it's just business," but the problem is most of the time when I hear that particular phrase, I'm probably about to be screwed over in some way.
nedwin 14y ago
I read a bit of subtext into this. If you've got 2.5 weeks to turn a hackathon project into a "company" to pitch to investors, it could be that the underlying issue your cofounder has isn't related to the copy. It could be related to the fact you took 2 days off during the middle of your sprint to get the project ready while she worked through. But I could be completely off the mark.
- nedwin 14y ago
  I think this is partly because whenever I've had an abrasive moment with someone like this, it's rarely because of the relatively minor issue at hand.
- ballooney 14y ago
  Thank you also for 'pitch to investors'. When you 'pitch investors' (like in the blog post) you are presumably either, depending on your cultural reference points, 1) Hurling them at a man who wants to hit them with a bat (a bubble metaphor?) 2) Tying them to the ground with guy-ropes so they don't get blown away (I won't try and find a metaphor). This is a trivial aside in the context of the article but it reads in such a dissonant way, up there with 'could of'.
- Heinleinian 14y ago
  Well put and I agree 100%. Couldn't be more obvious when you see look at it that way.
citricsquid 14y ago
communication.
flywheel 14y ago
I skimmed over that blog post, and have no clue what it was about. too much copy indeed. Getting people to read anything is difficult. Less words makes that easier.
skrebbel 14y ago
genuinely curious: what the hell is a 'rising sophomore'?
- roel_v 14y ago
  It's student-speak for 'finished freshman, will be sophomore coming next fall'. Yes it bugs me too, I guess that's a sign I'm officially an old grump now.
  - esrauch 14y ago
    It's a largely necessary phrase because "I'm a sophomore" is otherwise ambiguous if you just finished your sophomore year or are just about to start your sophomore year.
dmor 14y ago
I think your cofounder might be annoyed that you took two days off, came back and changed the work they'd been diligently working on while you were gone... and then wrote a blog post about it? Seriously. What have you actually learned here... it should be more than "treat others the way you wish to be treated" in my opinion.
michaelpinto 14y ago
Reading this made me feel sorry for the other co-founder: "The last two days, while I’d been relaxing in the rivers and mountains of upstate NY, one of my cofounders had been tirelessly building the landing page." This really means that while this dude was goofing off for two days the other parter was doing the real work. What's amazing to me is that this guy is so oblivious to this...
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  OTOH, when the rest of the team is utterly burnt, he's going to be fresh. People aren't machines. We're not built to go 100% all the time. There's an ebb and flow, a natural cycle to things. Sailing ships have watches. The crew in their bunks isn't slacking. They're resting up for their turn on deck. Now, if Jesse's not carrying his weight, it'll show eventually. I see too many frictions over small stuff here. Really.
- Deestan 14y ago
  > This really means that while this dude was goofing off How these people balance their work/life ratio is really none of your business, especially since you don't know any details.
  - michaelpinto 14y ago
    ...actually he was very open (maybe too open) about the work/life ratio thing and went into detail: That's what stood out to my eyes. You're right, it's not my business -- but in his article he makes it my business by pointing it out. But if I may be blunt this may also be a generational issue: In a startup you don't get a star for just showing up (frankly that's an employee mindset), what counts is what happens -- the results.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
qzio 14y ago
If the modification this guy made actually made the copy WORSE, then the reaction is completely understandable. I think the problem is on how do you know what is actually best? This is a problem for developers as well. "you refactored my code into some unreadable crap" - "I made it more clear and DRY" Lots of code (and copy) are highly subjective, like when to use a design pattern or when/if to break the Single responsibility principle etc. It's easier if you have a tight team that have worked together for a long time and get a long fine. However, it's also good with different views in order to actually get the best solution in place. How do you handle these kind of problems in a good constructive way?
countessa 14y ago
the whole thing could have been averted with a simple "hey - great work so far - can I tweak a couple of things?" instead, you now have a blog post (and HN thread) worth of analysis on something that should have been very simple. OTOH, no publicity is bad publicity, so it's all good in the end.
mikecane 14y ago
Don't tell US HTF to WRITE and WE won't tell YOU HTF to CODE. Deal? Reminds me of the movie Amadeus: "Too many notes."
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
vertis 14y ago
I love the concept of http://mentor.im http://mentor.im, but I detest having Facebook as the only mechanism with which mentors can signup. I'll put it only list of projects to check back in on though.
- thetabyte 14y ago
  Well, we still use social auth, but now it's LinkedIn :)

54 points by jessepollak 14y ago

ars 14y ago

Well? Finish the story! What happened after that? Did you apologize and change it? Leave it? How did she react afterward? How's your relationship now? Were you able to fix things between the two of you? I know the rest of your story doesn't really have anything to do with the message you are giving, but I like my stories complete. :)

thetabyte 14y ago
Well, it's only about a day old, but the conversation between him, her, and the rest of us went well from there. We're working on v2 right now :) I don't really think this is going to tear us apart--I was actually the cause of a worse mishap a bit earlier, and that ended much better after clearer, and apologetic communication. The point stands though, it is important that you stay considerate in situations like these, so they don't become something that jeopardize your team dynamic. Jesse immediately responded in an incredibly understanding and apologetic manner, and now we're working together to fix things, as we should! -Jordan (1 of 5)

nottombrown 14y ago

First reaction to the current site - There's too much copy. It's good to know your strengths and to be willing to lean on the people that you trust. It's bad to be a pushover. Do you think she got mad because your change made the product less compelling or because she felt it undermined her status?

aneth4 14y ago
I agree. The copy needs trimming. However, the article is right. If you delegate something to someone, you should discuss with them before (or occasionally after) overriding their decisions. If you do that too often, they may not be compatible with your vision for that position, in which case you should find someone who is.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

Always useful advice. If you delegate, then you delegate. That said, when someone changes your work without telling you its always useful to go in trying to learn. Both of you come away with a better understanding that way.

nickjp 14y ago

It probably wasn't a good idea to edit the copy without consulting others, but I've dealt with situations where I've had to decide what to do with copy that's long and rambling to the point of being unreadable. Something needs to be done in those situations. When a website reads like a novel, it's time to have a discussion, figure out what your users are there for, and determine whether you might be failing to promptly fulfill those needs. There's nothing wrong with providing ample information on a website, but it needs to be organized in a way that delivers the right amount of the right information to the right people. If you can't do that, you're probably delivering a mess of an experience for the majority.

molecule 14y ago

> Treat others the way you want to be treated > It’s a saying I learned in Quaker school, but it applies to almost every situation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

bootload 14y ago

"... It’s a saying I learned in Quaker school, but it applies to almost every situation. I don’t want to be undermined, so I shouldn’t undermine anyone else—consciously or unconsciously. ..." It's all about the goal. Be flexible. To get there someone has have responsibility to make a final call. If it's technical, a right or wrong answer can be made on merit. For non-technical or subjective decision defer to founder(s) experience, training or gut feel and back this decision up with measurement and make adjustments if needed.

josephcooney 14y ago

I disagree. If you're going to work as a team no-one can 'own' something entirely. What if you spotted a typo? Would it be OK to change the copy then? Everyone needs to be mature enough to trust that the other person wasn't being malicious, and be prepared to talk about things that they don't disagree with. And iterate. The words weren't carved onto a stone tablet and then launched into space. They're on the internet and can be changed in a heartbeat.

kevinburke 14y ago
Sure, but the OP's main problem was that he didn't communicate his opinions back to the person who'd worked so long on the copy.
- josephcooney 14y ago
  I don't think they should need to. You set up a situation where we can't touch the home-page without consulting Mike, or we can't change that data access code without talking to Sue about it. Do stuff. Make mistakes. Iterate.
  - jklp 14y ago
    I disagree. If your team is senior enough, I think it is very important to give people delegated areas of responsibility. I've found people start to take pride in their work when this happens, because they know the buck now stops at them, and any outcome (positive or negative) is their own doing. If you have everyone putting fingers in everyone else's work, why would you want to spend a week working on something when you know someone could just come in and undo it on a whim? In saying that, it doesn't mean people shouldn't take feedback, though eventually, you'll have to start trusting your team to make decisions for the business. As a founder, you can't go around making every decision for your company, it doesn't scale that way.
    - josephcooney 14y ago
      At a certain size, maybe, but for a 2-week seat-of-your-pants getting ready to pitch to VCs sprint I don't think delegated areas of responsibility, or exclusive ownership is warranted or healthy. I think if you go and stomp over someone elses good work you need to be responsible for that, but I think you need a team/organisation where you have that freedom. By the downvotes it looks like I'm the odd one out here. Whatever.

torquebomb 14y ago

Don'y f*ing use hackernews as your blog's comments platform

zemaj 14y ago

Eh, I think your co-founder has the wrong attitude here. I edit the copy all the time my co-founder writes. Sometimes I tell him, sometimes I just deploy if I'm in the middle of pushing something out. Building startups is all about iteration. One person sees something from one point of view, the next sees it from another. As each person adds their improvements you get a much better final product - you wouldn't be changing it if you didn't see something wrong with it. By the same token, I totally accept when the things I've spent hours pouring over get thrown out the door. We recently had a design review where someone said one of the elements I put hours into looked like a 3 year old had drawn it (they didn't know it was done by me, they thought it was outsourced). It was the kind of style I was going for, but that reaction made me realise it totally wasn't suitable for the site. I was a little hurt of-course, made a joke about it and brushed it off. We now have a completely new version of this page that's way better than my original vision. Wrong response: “You fucking trimmed my copy.” “I don’t want to get mad but I sat there for FIVE HOURS crafting that yesterday, there’s a reason for every word.” Right response: “I see you changed my copy. What improvements were you trying to make? I felt point x,y,z were important and you left them out. If you were trying to make it shorter, here's a shorter version that includes the more important points.“

thetabyte 14y ago
The less was less about the fact that he did change it, it was the fact that, by oversight, he changed it, and deployed it live without once discussing or even mentioning the changes, even after the fact. She was understanding of the change and we're working on a happy medium (just as you said we should), it was just a shock to find something she'd put so much effort into go live completely different than she expected. That kind of communication among founders is vital. -Jordan (1 of 5)
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  Sure, communication helps and matters. His cofounder overreacted, and in a bad way. This isn't a healthy relationship.
  - 14y ago

Androsynth 14y ago

My first thought when I hear 'theres a reason for every word.': amateur. Don't take yourself so seriously. Unless you've literally tested every word, theres not a reason for every word. You are just flinging paint on a wall and calling it art. (side note: you're young, its not bad being called an amateur. It's a good time for you to get rid of bad habits)

Confusion 14y ago
Yeah. And the second thought is: hand it off for a second opinion earlier. Writing copy is teamwork, except for experts at writing copy (exactly as writing code is teamwork, requiring review by someone else and refactoring).

Blank_ 14y ago

When I went to university, there was a design class I had to take. He was known to be pretty tough when critiquing people's work. In the first class one of the things he told us was: "It's not personal, it's just business". I find that it's generally helpful to keep this mindset. I try to keep in mind, it's really the result of my work (the final product) they are criticizing, it's not really me that they are trying to attack. Sure, I spent nights on something, but in the end if it looks bad, it looks bad. I can choose to feel hurt for a few seconds, over it, and make it better the next time around.

capsule_toy 14y ago
I would much rather the phrase be something like, "don't take it too personally, we're all on the same team and even though I'm harsh, the goal is to improve your work." I know it doesn't roll off the tongue like "it's not personal, it's just business," but the problem is most of the time when I hear that particular phrase, I'm probably about to be screwed over in some way.

nedwin 14y ago

I read a bit of subtext into this. If you've got 2.5 weeks to turn a hackathon project into a "company" to pitch to investors, it could be that the underlying issue your cofounder has isn't related to the copy. It could be related to the fact you took 2 days off during the middle of your sprint to get the project ready while she worked through. But I could be completely off the mark.

nedwin 14y ago
I think this is partly because whenever I've had an abrasive moment with someone like this, it's rarely because of the relatively minor issue at hand.
ballooney 14y ago
Thank you also for 'pitch to investors'. When you 'pitch investors' (like in the blog post) you are presumably either, depending on your cultural reference points, 1) Hurling them at a man who wants to hit them with a bat (a bubble metaphor?) 2) Tying them to the ground with guy-ropes so they don't get blown away (I won't try and find a metaphor). This is a trivial aside in the context of the article but it reads in such a dissonant way, up there with 'could of'.
Heinleinian 14y ago
Well put and I agree 100%. Couldn't be more obvious when you see look at it that way.

citricsquid 14y ago

communication.

flywheel 14y ago

I skimmed over that blog post, and have no clue what it was about. too much copy indeed. Getting people to read anything is difficult. Less words makes that easier.

skrebbel 14y ago

genuinely curious: what the hell is a 'rising sophomore'?

roel_v 14y ago
It's student-speak for 'finished freshman, will be sophomore coming next fall'. Yes it bugs me too, I guess that's a sign I'm officially an old grump now.
- esrauch 14y ago
  It's a largely necessary phrase because "I'm a sophomore" is otherwise ambiguous if you just finished your sophomore year or are just about to start your sophomore year.

dmor 14y ago

I think your cofounder might be annoyed that you took two days off, came back and changed the work they'd been diligently working on while you were gone... and then wrote a blog post about it? Seriously. What have you actually learned here... it should be more than "treat others the way you wish to be treated" in my opinion.

michaelpinto 14y ago

Reading this made me feel sorry for the other co-founder: "The last two days, while I’d been relaxing in the rivers and mountains of upstate NY, one of my cofounders had been tirelessly building the landing page." This really means that while this dude was goofing off for two days the other parter was doing the real work. What's amazing to me is that this guy is so oblivious to this...

dredmorbius 14y ago
OTOH, when the rest of the team is utterly burnt, he's going to be fresh. People aren't machines. We're not built to go 100% all the time. There's an ebb and flow, a natural cycle to things. Sailing ships have watches. The crew in their bunks isn't slacking. They're resting up for their turn on deck. Now, if Jesse's not carrying his weight, it'll show eventually. I see too many frictions over small stuff here. Really.
Deestan 14y ago
> This really means that while this dude was goofing off How these people balance their work/life ratio is really none of your business, especially since you don't know any details.
- michaelpinto 14y ago
  ...actually he was very open (maybe too open) about the work/life ratio thing and went into detail: That's what stood out to my eyes. You're right, it's not my business -- but in his article he makes it my business by pointing it out. But if I may be blunt this may also be a generational issue: In a startup you don't get a star for just showing up (frankly that's an employee mindset), what counts is what happens -- the results.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

qzio 14y ago

If the modification this guy made actually made the copy WORSE, then the reaction is completely understandable. I think the problem is on how do you know what is actually best? This is a problem for developers as well. "you refactored my code into some unreadable crap" - "I made it more clear and DRY" Lots of code (and copy) are highly subjective, like when to use a design pattern or when/if to break the Single responsibility principle etc. It's easier if you have a tight team that have worked together for a long time and get a long fine. However, it's also good with different views in order to actually get the best solution in place. How do you handle these kind of problems in a good constructive way?

countessa 14y ago

the whole thing could have been averted with a simple "hey - great work so far - can I tweak a couple of things?" instead, you now have a blog post (and HN thread) worth of analysis on something that should have been very simple. OTOH, no publicity is bad publicity, so it's all good in the end.

mikecane 14y ago

Don't tell US HTF to WRITE and WE won't tell YOU HTF to CODE. Deal? Reminds me of the movie Amadeus: "Too many notes."

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

vertis 14y ago

I love the concept of http://mentor.im http://mentor.im, but I detest having Facebook as the only mechanism with which mentors can signup. I'll put it only list of projects to check back in on though.

thetabyte 14y ago
Well, we still use social auth, but now it's LinkedIn :)