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> Nobody is calling anyone stupid just because of the lack of education. > However the lack of education makes people gullible and easy to manipulate. From ble

> Nobody is calling anyone stupid just because of the lack of education. > However the lack of education makes people gullible and easy to manipulate. From bleach as a Covid remedy... You may not realize you said it, but you said it.

ninkendo 2y ago
So what is the takeaway here? When referring to trump supporters, follow the line of reasoning: - Trump floated bleach as a covid remedy - Bleach as a covid remedy is obviously stupid (we should both be agreeing on this one) - Trump supporters support such statements from trump - But pointing that out is "calling them stupid" and thus we shouldn't do it? I'm genuinely curious about this because it makes up so many discussions with trump supporters in a nut shell. I don't want to condescend to them, but I also shouldn't be pointing out things that genuinely are stupid about trump, because doing so would offend them too? What should I do, just pretend all the dumb things Trump does (and that his supporters support him for) don't exist? Just so I can find common ground? (I mean, strictly speaking this is exactly what I do in polite company with trump supporters. I just pretend all the really dumb shit doesn't exist and just talk to them about policy and stuff, and in the end I end up finding that we agree on 90% of stuff and we go on our way. And they continue to support trump for reasons I don't understand.)
- bloopernova 2y ago
  Realize that in most of those conversations, those actions serve to derail. That's intentional, it shuts down any rational discourse.
- FergusArgyll 2y ago
  A good start would be looking at 3) more closely > Trump supporters support such statements from trump Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who used bleach? Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who thinks bleach for covid is a good idea? If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid? almost everyone I know voted for Trump, I know a lot of people, none of them ever drank bleach (as I'm writing this, I remembered I know someone who drank bleach as a little kid and had to go to the hospital, my point stands though)
  - ninkendo 2y ago
    > If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid? Lots of them did. https://www.poison.med.wayne.edu/updates-content/kstytapp2qfstf0pkacdxmz943u1hs https://www.poison.med.wayne.edu/updates-content/kstytapp2qf... But my larger point is that his supporters support such statements. Not that they’re stupid enough to inject bleach (although that did happen.) It’s more that, when bringing up that he even said shit like that, trump supporters get offended that you’re condescending to them. Like, how dare you bring up that thing he actually said. And when I say they support statements like that, it’s because they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it, trying to find ways of charitably interpreting his drivel. That’s what “support such statements” means.
    - FergusArgyll 2y ago
      You believing that people actually drank bleach and weren't pranking poison control is your choice. > they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it look, you've probably never listened to more than 5 unfiltered minutes of him speaking [0]. His supporters know he's not a lunatic, we've heard him talk for almost 10 years. Imagine a friend of yours saying something like what he said, actually imagine a normal friend of yours saying it. You wouldn't all of the sudden think he's a lunatic. Your 1st assumption would be "maybe they discussed something to do with one of the chemicals in one type of disinfectant possibly having another use" if that's a little crazy, maybe he's tired or joking or something. Point is, in Bayesian terms, it really depends on your priors. [0] I thought of an interesting exercise: If you commit to listening to his interview on Rogan, I'll listen to an episode of your choice that you think will enlighten me
      - ninkendo 2y ago
        > look, you've probably never listened to more than 5 unfiltered minutes of him speaking I have all the god damned time. He was president for 4 years! I had to! (At least as someone who tried to follow the news then, it was unavoidable.) Most recent time I listened to him for an extended period was during the debates, where I watched the whole thing uninterrupted. We can get into the whole eating dogs thing but I'm sure you're tired of it by now. > Imagine a friend of yours saying something like what he said I would think they're pretty dumb, but I'd brush it off and still be friends with them. But here's the thing: my friends aren't president of the united states. I believe we should hold him to a higher standard, especially in the beginning of a pandemic when misinformation was rampant and it was very important we didn't hear nonsense like this from our president. The whole "people say shit like that all the time" trope is the exact problem I have with trump and his supporters. I don't want our president to have the intelligence level of a typical "friend" who thinks putting bleach in your body might be a good way to fight an infection. > If you commit to listening to his interview on Rogan Hard fucking pass.
- ars 2y ago
  > Trump floated bleach as a covid remedy This premise isn't even true. Trump did NOT float this idea. This is something Democrats believe though. Which says a lot more about Democrats than it does about Trump supporters. As someone replied to you: No Trump supporters actually believe in bleach as a remedy, but tons of Democrats do. What does that tell you about their respective intelligence or education?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ninkendo 2y ago
    > Trump did NOT float this idea. Here is the exact quote: > Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you're going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me So we go back to my point. Am I supposed to just pretend he doesn’t say shit like this, so that I avoid offending trump supporters?
    - ars 2y ago
      And interestingly the word "bleach" does not show up in the quote. And when he says "disinfectant" he means that literally as some kind of disinfecting medication. The next sentence mentioning "medical doctors" should have clued you into that. So, now that you know that, what's wrong with what he said? (Oh, I'm well aware that the media rapidly decided disinfectant meant bleach, and then went on a rampage about that, but that's not what he said, and also not what he meant.) Which is kind of the point isn't it? You are accusing Trump supporters of lack of knowledge but the shoe is actually on the other foot. The entire outrage was literally an invention of his opponents. Which is also why Republicans laugh at liberals who complain about this stuff, because unlike the liberals, they heard what he actually said, and not some fictional version.
      - 2y ago
effable 2y ago
But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, not because there is any evidence behind them but only because they were uttered by someone they trust wholeheartedly, and this person does not have any hint of medical training, that nobody should say they are stupid, but only quietly believe it in their minds? If not that, then what were you trying to say?
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  > But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, These are morons you read about in your news bubble. The average American is not like them.
  - Photato 2y ago
    Trump is literally one of these morons and millions voted for him. How would you classify them based on this fact, if not ignorant?

ninkendo 2y ago

So what is the takeaway here? When referring to trump supporters, follow the line of reasoning: - Trump floated bleach as a covid remedy - Bleach as a covid remedy is obviously stupid (we should both be agreeing on this one) - Trump supporters support such statements from trump - But pointing that out is "calling them stupid" and thus we shouldn't do it? I'm genuinely curious about this because it makes up so many discussions with trump supporters in a nut shell. I don't want to condescend to them, but I also shouldn't be pointing out things that genuinely are stupid about trump, because doing so would offend them too? What should I do, just pretend all the dumb things Trump does (and that his supporters support him for) don't exist? Just so I can find common ground? (I mean, strictly speaking this is exactly what I do in polite company with trump supporters. I just pretend all the really dumb shit doesn't exist and just talk to them about policy and stuff, and in the end I end up finding that we agree on 90% of stuff and we go on our way. And they continue to support trump for reasons I don't understand.)

bloopernova 2y ago
Realize that in most of those conversations, those actions serve to derail. That's intentional, it shuts down any rational discourse.
FergusArgyll 2y ago
A good start would be looking at 3) more closely > Trump supporters support such statements from trump Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who used bleach? Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who thinks bleach for covid is a good idea? If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid? almost everyone I know voted for Trump, I know a lot of people, none of them ever drank bleach (as I'm writing this, I remembered I know someone who drank bleach as a little kid and had to go to the hospital, my point stands though)
- ninkendo 2y ago
  > If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid? Lots of them did. https://www.poison.med.wayne.edu/updates-content/kstytapp2qfstf0pkacdxmz943u1hs https://www.poison.med.wayne.edu/updates-content/kstytapp2qf... But my larger point is that his supporters support such statements. Not that they’re stupid enough to inject bleach (although that did happen.) It’s more that, when bringing up that he even said shit like that, trump supporters get offended that you’re condescending to them. Like, how dare you bring up that thing he actually said. And when I say they support statements like that, it’s because they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it, trying to find ways of charitably interpreting his drivel. That’s what “support such statements” means.
  - FergusArgyll 2y ago
    You believing that people actually drank bleach and weren't pranking poison control is your choice. > they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it look, you've probably never listened to more than 5 unfiltered minutes of him speaking [0]. His supporters know he's not a lunatic, we've heard him talk for almost 10 years. Imagine a friend of yours saying something like what he said, actually imagine a normal friend of yours saying it. You wouldn't all of the sudden think he's a lunatic. Your 1st assumption would be "maybe they discussed something to do with one of the chemicals in one type of disinfectant possibly having another use" if that's a little crazy, maybe he's tired or joking or something. Point is, in Bayesian terms, it really depends on your priors. [0] I thought of an interesting exercise: If you commit to listening to his interview on Rogan, I'll listen to an episode of your choice that you think will enlighten me
    - ninkendo 2y ago
      > look, you've probably never listened to more than 5 unfiltered minutes of him speaking I have all the god damned time. He was president for 4 years! I had to! (At least as someone who tried to follow the news then, it was unavoidable.) Most recent time I listened to him for an extended period was during the debates, where I watched the whole thing uninterrupted. We can get into the whole eating dogs thing but I'm sure you're tired of it by now. > Imagine a friend of yours saying something like what he said I would think they're pretty dumb, but I'd brush it off and still be friends with them. But here's the thing: my friends aren't president of the united states. I believe we should hold him to a higher standard, especially in the beginning of a pandemic when misinformation was rampant and it was very important we didn't hear nonsense like this from our president. The whole "people say shit like that all the time" trope is the exact problem I have with trump and his supporters. I don't want our president to have the intelligence level of a typical "friend" who thinks putting bleach in your body might be a good way to fight an infection. > If you commit to listening to his interview on Rogan Hard fucking pass.
ars 2y ago
> Trump floated bleach as a covid remedy This premise isn't even true. Trump did NOT float this idea. This is something Democrats believe though. Which says a lot more about Democrats than it does about Trump supporters. As someone replied to you: No Trump supporters actually believe in bleach as a remedy, but tons of Democrats do. What does that tell you about their respective intelligence or education?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ninkendo 2y ago
  > Trump did NOT float this idea. Here is the exact quote: > Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you're going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me So we go back to my point. Am I supposed to just pretend he doesn’t say shit like this, so that I avoid offending trump supporters?
  - ars 2y ago
    And interestingly the word "bleach" does not show up in the quote. And when he says "disinfectant" he means that literally as some kind of disinfecting medication. The next sentence mentioning "medical doctors" should have clued you into that. So, now that you know that, what's wrong with what he said? (Oh, I'm well aware that the media rapidly decided disinfectant meant bleach, and then went on a rampage about that, but that's not what he said, and also not what he meant.) Which is kind of the point isn't it? You are accusing Trump supporters of lack of knowledge but the shoe is actually on the other foot. The entire outrage was literally an invention of his opponents. Which is also why Republicans laugh at liberals who complain about this stuff, because unlike the liberals, they heard what he actually said, and not some fictional version.
    - 2y ago

effable 2y ago

But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, not because there is any evidence behind them but only because they were uttered by someone they trust wholeheartedly, and this person does not have any hint of medical training, that nobody should say they are stupid, but only quietly believe it in their minds? If not that, then what were you trying to say?

selfmodruntime 2y ago
> But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, These are morons you read about in your news bubble. The average American is not like them.
- Photato 2y ago
  Trump is literally one of these morons and millions voted for him. How would you classify them based on this fact, if not ignorant?