10 ms·

For me the biggest problem is Ukraine, the country I live next to. Trump is more than happy to pull out of NATO

tekknik 2y ago
Trump doesn’t want to leave NATO, that would be dumb. He wants those not “paying their fair share” to pay more or the US will leave. It’s a negotiating tactic. So if you don’t want the US to leave NATO and you’re in a NATO country then get them to spend more on NATO.
- hfsh 2y ago
  And by 'pay more' he means 'buy more US weapons'. NATO is a conveniently captive market for the US arms manufacturers, and no way they're going to want to pull out of that while they still have stock to sell.
  - tekknik 2y ago
    you’re free to make your own weapons, plenty of NATO countries do.
  - codersfocus 2y ago
    Turkey bought Russian weapons and wasn't kicked out. They were barred from buying more US weapons for a while.
- AndyJames 2y ago
  Before 2020 elections John Bolton said that Trump doesn't see the point for NATO and will consider withdrawing if he wins in 2020. Because of that a NATO Support at was passed in Congress to block the president from single handly withdraw the US from NATO. That was over 4 years ago, hopefully he changed his mind.
  - kyleee 2y ago
    Reminder that Bolton is an insane person, so who knows if what he says publicly about Trump’s intentions are true.
  - tekknik 2y ago
    as a veteran i also don’t see the full point. i understand the intent behind it but the actual implementation is garbage. the US is paying large sums of money to protect land we don’t own. but if we very other NATO country steps up well then the collective defense works.
- Epa095 2y ago
  You probably know this, but just in case: NATO is not a club you pay 2% in to for protection. The 2% is the required spending on YOUR OWN defence. In practice this benefits USA as a major weapon producer, at least it has until now. I have a feeling Europe feels less certain that they will buy American next time.
  - tekknik 2y ago
    OK? how did this statement change anything I posted? I guess you didn’t know this, the idea is strength in numbers. If you can’t provide for personal and collective defense, gtfo.
    - gcr 2y ago
      Doesn't strength in numbers contradict your idea of kicking out the weak? When I hear phrases like strength in numbers, I think of elephants. When a herd of elephants watches lions circle their community, the strong ones stand around their young to protect them. That's analogous to "strong" countries subsidizing ones who can't provide for themselves, because having an allied presence is helpful.
      - lukas099 2y ago
        It’s not that they can’t protect themselves, it’s that they would rather spend the money on their own social programs.
        tekknik 2y ago
        exactly
      - tekknik 2y ago
        Sure, but if they’re not pulling their weight then they’re a detriment. Have you served next to a foreign NATO soldier? I have. I wasn’t impressed. Step up your spending or gtfo.
    - Epa095 2y ago
- timeon 2y ago
  Maybe EU countries should be those that leave NATO so they won't be blackmailed. They have some nuclear capable countries already. It would be much weaker alliance but with nuclear warhead one just need to press the button. Since EU states are getting more and more populists leaders this can happen eventually.
  - tekknik 2y ago
    please do, Europe has a fraction of the military might the US does, and nobody owns more nukes than Russia and the US. Russia is also a 3 min flight time to Europe, so you have a literal 0% chance of stopping a Russian nuclear attack. please leave or step up.
- theGnuMe 2y ago
  My theory is that we will leave Nato because he won’t want war when Putin pushes into Europe. His base doesn’t care frankly. The direct cost is too high and they can’t see past grocery prices. That will all depend on how worn down the Russian military actually is and how long it needs to rebuild. And at any rate the threat of Russian military action will be used to punish any European country that doesn’t accept Russian influence. It will be used on former Soviet republics. The only thing that may stop Trump and saving Europe is his ego now that he has effective immunity from prosecution as Putin is no longer a threat to him. We will see who the bigger narcissist actually is. Putin is probably smarter though. We need some seriously smart republicans. Countries with right wing Russian aligned puppets may prevent direct conflict by appeasement but nevertheless they will be under Putin’s control. China will continue being China. Where semiconductors fall will be interesting as will access to battery tech. Trump will print money to appease his base and we will see exactly how economic forces evolve beyond control. Buying crypto now seems like a good idea.
  - tekknik 2y ago
    > My theory is that we will leave Nato because he won’t want war when Putin pushes into Europe. I stopped reading here. If Putin expands the war it will be nuclear. No country will survive. WW3 is coming soon.
- sensanaty 2y ago
  He was very correct in calling out EU countries on Russian gas reliance (which is still somehow an issue!), and also on the EU being way too comfortable with letting the US pick up the slack when it came to our defense. The EU SHOULD be spending the agreed upon 2%, all this weasley shit the EU gov'ts are pulling is a complete joke considering the massive Bear in the room that is Russia.
on_the_train 2y ago
Not an American issue
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Until it is. But statements like this are why the world as a society is backsliding, countries putting up walls and isolating themselves instead of seeing the benefits of cooperation in terms of stability and economy. Just look at the economic downturn that happened in the UK when they withdrew from the EU, or how Russia was shunned, excluded and sanctioned for starting an unprovoked war. Any benefit the US thinks they get for the policies that Trump and his ear-whisperers wants to enact will be short-term. Which is not a problem for Trump as he won't be there to see the long term consequences.
- gcr 2y ago
  Reagan saw the Soviet rise to power as a critical American issue. The cold war was _the_ defining foreign policy issue of his era.
- jacobgorm 2y ago
  Just like 9/11 and the fake thread of Iraq WMDs weren't other-NATO-contries' issues, but we still stepped up to help.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  Have you considered what happens if someone decides to bomb an ASML factory?
monero-xmr 2y ago
The EU can pay for their own defense now I guess
- chris_wot 2y ago
  And they almost certainly will. In fact, I predict military spending is going to rise exponentially. Can you imagine what the world might look like if all of the EU spend as much on the military as the U.S.? Be careful what you wish for.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I absolutely hope the EU ramps military spending and negates the need for US support. Sometimes, you need a catalyst, and clearly another nation should not be beholden to US defense agreements. Decoupling globally continues. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/368528/us-military-army-navy-recruit-numbers https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/368528/us-military-army-n... https://indi.ca/the-us-military-is-in-a-death-spiral/ https://indi.ca/the-us-military-is-in-a-death-spiral/ https://www.rand.org/nsrd/projects/NDS-commission.html https://www.rand.org/nsrd/projects/NDS-commission.html
  - rdtsc 2y ago
    With Putin at their door for so many years, attacking Georgia, Ukraine, bullying other countries, etc., it's absolutely amazing how nonchalant EU was about it. > Be careful what you wish for. A strong EU that Putin will think twice before starting anything at their doorstep is my wish. Let's see if they can make it happen!
    - chris_wot 2y ago
      Hey, it's going to be great for the EU. In fact, I think lessened U.S. influence in world affairs is going to be a net positive for everyone, except perhaps the U.S.
rdtsc 2y ago
> Trump is more than happy to pull out of NATO Why, what's the idea behind it? Isn't he big on military and showing power?
lukas099 2y ago
Congress already passed a law requiring Congressional approval to pull out so he can’t do it unilaterally.

Trump doesn’t want to leave NATO, that would be dumb. He wants those not “paying their fair share” to pay more or the US will leave. It’s a negotiating tactic. So if you don’t want the US to leave NATO and you’re in a NATO country then get them to spend more on NATO.

hfsh 2y ago
And by 'pay more' he means 'buy more US weapons'. NATO is a conveniently captive market for the US arms manufacturers, and no way they're going to want to pull out of that while they still have stock to sell.
- tekknik 2y ago
  you’re free to make your own weapons, plenty of NATO countries do.
- codersfocus 2y ago
  Turkey bought Russian weapons and wasn't kicked out. They were barred from buying more US weapons for a while.
AndyJames 2y ago
Before 2020 elections John Bolton said that Trump doesn't see the point for NATO and will consider withdrawing if he wins in 2020. Because of that a NATO Support at was passed in Congress to block the president from single handly withdraw the US from NATO. That was over 4 years ago, hopefully he changed his mind.
- kyleee 2y ago
  Reminder that Bolton is an insane person, so who knows if what he says publicly about Trump’s intentions are true.
- tekknik 2y ago
  as a veteran i also don’t see the full point. i understand the intent behind it but the actual implementation is garbage. the US is paying large sums of money to protect land we don’t own. but if we very other NATO country steps up well then the collective defense works.
Epa095 2y ago
You probably know this, but just in case: NATO is not a club you pay 2% in to for protection. The 2% is the required spending on YOUR OWN defence. In practice this benefits USA as a major weapon producer, at least it has until now. I have a feeling Europe feels less certain that they will buy American next time.
- tekknik 2y ago
  OK? how did this statement change anything I posted? I guess you didn’t know this, the idea is strength in numbers. If you can’t provide for personal and collective defense, gtfo.
  - gcr 2y ago
    Doesn't strength in numbers contradict your idea of kicking out the weak? When I hear phrases like strength in numbers, I think of elephants. When a herd of elephants watches lions circle their community, the strong ones stand around their young to protect them. That's analogous to "strong" countries subsidizing ones who can't provide for themselves, because having an allied presence is helpful.
    - lukas099 2y ago
      It’s not that they can’t protect themselves, it’s that they would rather spend the money on their own social programs.
      - tekknik 2y ago
        exactly
    - tekknik 2y ago
      Sure, but if they’re not pulling their weight then they’re a detriment. Have you served next to a foreign NATO soldier? I have. I wasn’t impressed. Step up your spending or gtfo.
  - Epa095 2y ago
timeon 2y ago
Maybe EU countries should be those that leave NATO so they won't be blackmailed. They have some nuclear capable countries already. It would be much weaker alliance but with nuclear warhead one just need to press the button. Since EU states are getting more and more populists leaders this can happen eventually.
- tekknik 2y ago
  please do, Europe has a fraction of the military might the US does, and nobody owns more nukes than Russia and the US. Russia is also a 3 min flight time to Europe, so you have a literal 0% chance of stopping a Russian nuclear attack. please leave or step up.
theGnuMe 2y ago
My theory is that we will leave Nato because he won’t want war when Putin pushes into Europe. His base doesn’t care frankly. The direct cost is too high and they can’t see past grocery prices. That will all depend on how worn down the Russian military actually is and how long it needs to rebuild. And at any rate the threat of Russian military action will be used to punish any European country that doesn’t accept Russian influence. It will be used on former Soviet republics. The only thing that may stop Trump and saving Europe is his ego now that he has effective immunity from prosecution as Putin is no longer a threat to him. We will see who the bigger narcissist actually is. Putin is probably smarter though. We need some seriously smart republicans. Countries with right wing Russian aligned puppets may prevent direct conflict by appeasement but nevertheless they will be under Putin’s control. China will continue being China. Where semiconductors fall will be interesting as will access to battery tech. Trump will print money to appease his base and we will see exactly how economic forces evolve beyond control. Buying crypto now seems like a good idea.
- tekknik 2y ago
  > My theory is that we will leave Nato because he won’t want war when Putin pushes into Europe. I stopped reading here. If Putin expands the war it will be nuclear. No country will survive. WW3 is coming soon.
sensanaty 2y ago
He was very correct in calling out EU countries on Russian gas reliance (which is still somehow an issue!), and also on the EU being way too comfortable with letting the US pick up the slack when it came to our defense. The EU SHOULD be spending the agreed upon 2%, all this weasley shit the EU gov'ts are pulling is a complete joke considering the massive Bear in the room that is Russia.

on_the_train 2y ago

Not an American issue

Cthulhu_ 2y ago
Until it is. But statements like this are why the world as a society is backsliding, countries putting up walls and isolating themselves instead of seeing the benefits of cooperation in terms of stability and economy. Just look at the economic downturn that happened in the UK when they withdrew from the EU, or how Russia was shunned, excluded and sanctioned for starting an unprovoked war. Any benefit the US thinks they get for the policies that Trump and his ear-whisperers wants to enact will be short-term. Which is not a problem for Trump as he won't be there to see the long term consequences.
gcr 2y ago
Reagan saw the Soviet rise to power as a critical American issue. The cold war was _the_ defining foreign policy issue of his era.
jacobgorm 2y ago
Just like 9/11 and the fake thread of Iraq WMDs weren't other-NATO-contries' issues, but we still stepped up to help.
rbanffy 2y ago
Have you considered what happens if someone decides to bomb an ASML factory?

monero-xmr 2y ago

The EU can pay for their own defense now I guess

chris_wot 2y ago
And they almost certainly will. In fact, I predict military spending is going to rise exponentially. Can you imagine what the world might look like if all of the EU spend as much on the military as the U.S.? Be careful what you wish for.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  I absolutely hope the EU ramps military spending and negates the need for US support. Sometimes, you need a catalyst, and clearly another nation should not be beholden to US defense agreements. Decoupling globally continues. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/368528/us-military-army-navy-recruit-numbers https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/368528/us-military-army-n... https://indi.ca/the-us-military-is-in-a-death-spiral/ https://indi.ca/the-us-military-is-in-a-death-spiral/ https://www.rand.org/nsrd/projects/NDS-commission.html https://www.rand.org/nsrd/projects/NDS-commission.html
- rdtsc 2y ago
  With Putin at their door for so many years, attacking Georgia, Ukraine, bullying other countries, etc., it's absolutely amazing how nonchalant EU was about it. > Be careful what you wish for. A strong EU that Putin will think twice before starting anything at their doorstep is my wish. Let's see if they can make it happen!
  - chris_wot 2y ago
    Hey, it's going to be great for the EU. In fact, I think lessened U.S. influence in world affairs is going to be a net positive for everyone, except perhaps the U.S.

rdtsc 2y ago

> Trump is more than happy to pull out of NATO Why, what's the idea behind it? Isn't he big on military and showing power?

lukas099 2y ago

Congress already passed a law requiring Congressional approval to pull out so he can’t do it unilaterally.