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I don’t think it’s as tribal as you think. At the margins yes, there are wing nuts both ways. But Trump got a lot of votes he didn’t get before and Kamala got f

I don’t think it’s as tribal as you think. At the margins yes, there are wing nuts both ways. But Trump got a lot of votes he didn’t get before and Kamala got fewer than Biden. Inflation has been a shocker. The border being flooded is terrifying. The economy is and has been struggling in many peoples lives. And the democrats want to still focus on identity politics. I think they can easily win in 4 years but they need to change their ways. They need to abandon the poisoned ideology that Obama inspired.

istjohn 2y ago
> The border being flooded is terrifying. ... > And the democrats want to still focus on identity politics. Does typing this out not cause the slightest pang of cognitive dissonance?
- m0llusk 2y ago
  Add to that the Democrats have been far more successful with apprehending and deporting illegal immigrants. This is a struggle among people trapped in their own bubbles, disconnected from and uninterested in reality or relevant metrics.
  - nemo44x 2y ago
    I don’t know if that’s true or not but “sanctuary cities”, “Abolish ICE”, blue city mayors complaining about a migrant crisis, and Venezuelan gangs taking over apartment complexes don’t inspire confidence.
- nemo44x 2y ago
  If the issue was immigrants in general then possibly. But it’s about illegal immigration specifically and complete disregard for law and order when it comes to the millions crossing the border illegally and being encouraged to do so in many cases or no pressure to deport anyhow. Turns out that’s bad policy.
  - ubertaco 2y ago
    By the actual numbers, illegal immigrants are by far the group with the lowest rate of felony, violent crime, property crime, and drug-related crime: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-o... The idea of illegal immigration being "complete disregard for law and order" is based solely in feelings of fear or animosity, not in facts.
- throwaway817472 2y ago
  This is precisely his point. Illegal immigration isn’t about identity politics, as it has nothing to do with race or gender or disability, etc. Your comment turned this into a conversation about identity politics.
  - Rebelgecko 2y ago
    Most discussions of immigration I've seen seem to be fixated on a subset of illegal immigrants. i.e. talk of border walls (only between US/Mexico, never seen discussion of US/Canada) when most illegal immigrants are coming via boring methods like through ports of entry and on commercial airplanes.
    - throwaway817472 2y ago
      That’s fascinating. I definitely agree that there seems to be a fixation on the southern border. Do you have a source showing that a majority of illegal immigrants are entering through ports of entry or commercial flights? Would love to read it.
      - Rebelgecko 2y ago
        I didn't find more recent numbers than this in the minute I spent looking but I imagine they're available if you dig around: https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/686056668/for-seventh-consecutive-year-visa-overstays-exceeded-illegal-border-crossings https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/686056668/for-seventh-consecu...
        kgwgk 2y ago
        That’s about 2016-2017. Estimates of illegal crossings in the South border were below 200k per year, I think, but over 800k last year.
        Rebelgecko 2y ago
        Wasn't 2016 when the country was at peak "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it"? Regardless, do you have numbers for 2023 that include visa overstays, for comparison purposes?
- starfezzy 2y ago
  Implying a contradiction reveals the critic’s own identity politics perspective. The permanent, irreversible demographic shift that conveniently favors Dem politics is only one of the many, many problems caused by turning a blind eye to unprecedented hordes of inherently law-disregarding third-worlders taking advantage of our weak border enforcement.
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
I never saw any Democrats focusing on Identity, it was always Republicans talking about it as a boogie man. There are actual real genetic disorders Trans people are dealing with. Republican's just chose Trans people as some small group dealing with a difficult to explain condition and decided to pile on them.
- NeutralCrane 2y ago
  Republicans have been increasingly focused on identity politics and Democrats have been avoiding it for only the last year or so as it has become clear that it is a major liability for Democrats. They spent most of the last decade heavily emphasizing identity politics, and it’s become clear to them and everyone else they have been largely out of touch with the average American in that area. Now that there is a rising backlash, they’ve tried to distance themselves but Republicans have years of material to drag out and pin them with. I don’t think they get credit for trying to downplay a long-running strategic blunder in the 11th hour.
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    Decade? Not really. If you want to go back a Decade, then it was legitimate equality issues. You can't just say, people shouldn't be equal and claim you are fighting against 'identity' politics. Like women being allowed to open bank accounts without their husbands permission. Why do Republicans want to go back to those days? Unless you actually listen to them, and they quote some Bible Versus about Women being property, then you see the actual agenda.
- nemo44x 2y ago
  This is the classic motte-and-bailey scenario - that the entire radical gender movement is just trying to be nice to trans people. But overlooking trans women competing against biological women, biological reality, critical gender theory being taught to kids, pronouns, “x” as in Latinx and the adjacent drag queens reading to kids, etc.
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
intended 2y ago
But… all of those were addressed by the Dems? Kamala’s policies were explained and even endorsed by economists. The people who bring the issues back to identity politics are not dems. Unless… perhaps the solutions didn’t matter, and the polls themselves were much stronger than the results.
- NeutralCrane 2y ago
  Economists are tea leaf readers. For any given economic plan you have economists giving their endorsement. “Kamala’s policies were explained and even endorsed by economists” is a non-statement and you can replace “Kamala” with any presidential candidate in the last 50 years and it will remain true. I think the President gets too much credit for both good and bad economic situations, but the fact of the matter is that the average American feels the economy is terrible after 4 years of Biden policies and that is going to look larger than promises of future policies. On the issue of identity politics, Democrats have been all in for nearly a decade, and only in the last year or so, when it has become apparent they are out of step with the majority of Americans, have they begun to back off. It’s not unexpected for the Republicans to now be the ones bringing up identity politics given how closely the Democrats have aligned themselves to it for so long, and the current backlash towards it. The damage is done and it will take many years of priority shifting for Democrats to get over it.
  - intended 2y ago
    The preceding comments were about tribalism, and I was showing that policy had nothing to do with anything. That the dems talked about policy but it still be perceived that they didn’t. > identity politics This has squarely been a republican plank to rile and invigorate their base, regularly creating issues where none existed to get their team up to vote, The fact that this can be blamed on the dems is always strange. I mean, the whole point of Fox was to create a counter narrative to address the march of “liberal science”. The goal was entirely to handle science and research, and present ways to combat this with feelings. Again - my favorite example is creationism.
ff317 2y ago
Inflation being a years-long painful problem to wrestle with was inevitable with all the stimulus pumped in to keep us afloat through the pandemic. We could have fared far worse, and many countries did. I don't know why the left didn't push on this argument harder to defend themselves.
bakuninsbart 2y ago
You are not wrong, the Democrat strategy obviously failed, the racist right is significantly better at identity politics, because a) whites are still a majority and b) latinos are very christian and anti-socialist on average. And Kamala Harris was an uninspiring candidate, the democrats have proved to be the definition of "lesser evil" without any true identity with teeth to speak off. Still, Donald Trump is a pedophile, a rapist, a good friend to Jeffrey Epstein. I don't understand how anyone can be morally bankrupt enough to vote for someone like that.
- reviewmoreprs 2y ago
  I think the entire map was red on Tuesday in large part because of incredibly racists thoughts and posts like these becoming more and more prevalent. The idea that white people should not be a majority and if they are it's due to racism is an extremely disgusting and racist statement.

istjohn 2y ago

> The border being flooded is terrifying. ... > And the democrats want to still focus on identity politics. Does typing this out not cause the slightest pang of cognitive dissonance?

m0llusk 2y ago
Add to that the Democrats have been far more successful with apprehending and deporting illegal immigrants. This is a struggle among people trapped in their own bubbles, disconnected from and uninterested in reality or relevant metrics.
- nemo44x 2y ago
  I don’t know if that’s true or not but “sanctuary cities”, “Abolish ICE”, blue city mayors complaining about a migrant crisis, and Venezuelan gangs taking over apartment complexes don’t inspire confidence.
nemo44x 2y ago
If the issue was immigrants in general then possibly. But it’s about illegal immigration specifically and complete disregard for law and order when it comes to the millions crossing the border illegally and being encouraged to do so in many cases or no pressure to deport anyhow. Turns out that’s bad policy.
- ubertaco 2y ago
  By the actual numbers, illegal immigrants are by far the group with the lowest rate of felony, violent crime, property crime, and drug-related crime: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-o... The idea of illegal immigration being "complete disregard for law and order" is based solely in feelings of fear or animosity, not in facts.
throwaway817472 2y ago
This is precisely his point. Illegal immigration isn’t about identity politics, as it has nothing to do with race or gender or disability, etc. Your comment turned this into a conversation about identity politics.
- Rebelgecko 2y ago
  Most discussions of immigration I've seen seem to be fixated on a subset of illegal immigrants. i.e. talk of border walls (only between US/Mexico, never seen discussion of US/Canada) when most illegal immigrants are coming via boring methods like through ports of entry and on commercial airplanes.
  - throwaway817472 2y ago
    That’s fascinating. I definitely agree that there seems to be a fixation on the southern border. Do you have a source showing that a majority of illegal immigrants are entering through ports of entry or commercial flights? Would love to read it.
    - Rebelgecko 2y ago
      I didn't find more recent numbers than this in the minute I spent looking but I imagine they're available if you dig around: https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/686056668/for-seventh-consecutive-year-visa-overstays-exceeded-illegal-border-crossings https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/686056668/for-seventh-consecu...
      - kgwgk 2y ago
        That’s about 2016-2017. Estimates of illegal crossings in the South border were below 200k per year, I think, but over 800k last year.
        Rebelgecko 2y ago
        Wasn't 2016 when the country was at peak "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it"? Regardless, do you have numbers for 2023 that include visa overstays, for comparison purposes?
starfezzy 2y ago
Implying a contradiction reveals the critic’s own identity politics perspective. The permanent, irreversible demographic shift that conveniently favors Dem politics is only one of the many, many problems caused by turning a blind eye to unprecedented hordes of inherently law-disregarding third-worlders taking advantage of our weak border enforcement.

FrustratedMonky 2y ago

I never saw any Democrats focusing on Identity, it was always Republicans talking about it as a boogie man. There are actual real genetic disorders Trans people are dealing with. Republican's just chose Trans people as some small group dealing with a difficult to explain condition and decided to pile on them.

NeutralCrane 2y ago
Republicans have been increasingly focused on identity politics and Democrats have been avoiding it for only the last year or so as it has become clear that it is a major liability for Democrats. They spent most of the last decade heavily emphasizing identity politics, and it’s become clear to them and everyone else they have been largely out of touch with the average American in that area. Now that there is a rising backlash, they’ve tried to distance themselves but Republicans have years of material to drag out and pin them with. I don’t think they get credit for trying to downplay a long-running strategic blunder in the 11th hour.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  Decade? Not really. If you want to go back a Decade, then it was legitimate equality issues. You can't just say, people shouldn't be equal and claim you are fighting against 'identity' politics. Like women being allowed to open bank accounts without their husbands permission. Why do Republicans want to go back to those days? Unless you actually listen to them, and they quote some Bible Versus about Women being property, then you see the actual agenda.
nemo44x 2y ago
This is the classic motte-and-bailey scenario - that the entire radical gender movement is just trying to be nice to trans people. But overlooking trans women competing against biological women, biological reality, critical gender theory being taught to kids, pronouns, “x” as in Latinx and the adjacent drag queens reading to kids, etc.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago

intended 2y ago

But… all of those were addressed by the Dems? Kamala’s policies were explained and even endorsed by economists. The people who bring the issues back to identity politics are not dems. Unless… perhaps the solutions didn’t matter, and the polls themselves were much stronger than the results.

NeutralCrane 2y ago
Economists are tea leaf readers. For any given economic plan you have economists giving their endorsement. “Kamala’s policies were explained and even endorsed by economists” is a non-statement and you can replace “Kamala” with any presidential candidate in the last 50 years and it will remain true. I think the President gets too much credit for both good and bad economic situations, but the fact of the matter is that the average American feels the economy is terrible after 4 years of Biden policies and that is going to look larger than promises of future policies. On the issue of identity politics, Democrats have been all in for nearly a decade, and only in the last year or so, when it has become apparent they are out of step with the majority of Americans, have they begun to back off. It’s not unexpected for the Republicans to now be the ones bringing up identity politics given how closely the Democrats have aligned themselves to it for so long, and the current backlash towards it. The damage is done and it will take many years of priority shifting for Democrats to get over it.
- intended 2y ago
  The preceding comments were about tribalism, and I was showing that policy had nothing to do with anything. That the dems talked about policy but it still be perceived that they didn’t. > identity politics This has squarely been a republican plank to rile and invigorate their base, regularly creating issues where none existed to get their team up to vote, The fact that this can be blamed on the dems is always strange. I mean, the whole point of Fox was to create a counter narrative to address the march of “liberal science”. The goal was entirely to handle science and research, and present ways to combat this with feelings. Again - my favorite example is creationism.

ff317 2y ago

Inflation being a years-long painful problem to wrestle with was inevitable with all the stimulus pumped in to keep us afloat through the pandemic. We could have fared far worse, and many countries did. I don't know why the left didn't push on this argument harder to defend themselves.

bakuninsbart 2y ago

You are not wrong, the Democrat strategy obviously failed, the racist right is significantly better at identity politics, because a) whites are still a majority and b) latinos are very christian and anti-socialist on average. And Kamala Harris was an uninspiring candidate, the democrats have proved to be the definition of "lesser evil" without any true identity with teeth to speak off. Still, Donald Trump is a pedophile, a rapist, a good friend to Jeffrey Epstein. I don't understand how anyone can be morally bankrupt enough to vote for someone like that.

reviewmoreprs 2y ago
I think the entire map was red on Tuesday in large part because of incredibly racists thoughts and posts like these becoming more and more prevalent. The idea that white people should not be a majority and if they are it's due to racism is an extremely disgusting and racist statement.