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Why would Russia want the EU dead. They were selling 10's of billions of dollars of oil and gas to it each year. Russia is however a bit paranoid about its ow

by gg82 2y ago

Why would Russia want the EU dead. They were selling 10's of billions of dollars of oil and gas to it each year. Russia is however a bit paranoid about its own security, having being invaded numerous times over the centuries and wants to keep control of its own economic destiny. Provide a way where security of both Europe and Russia can be provided for and peace will quickly follow.

account42 2y ago
> Russia is however a bit paranoid about its own security, having being invaded numerous times over the centuries and wants to keep control of its own economic destiny. In soviet Russua, Russia is the one constantly being invaded.
microtonal 2y ago
Russia is however a bit paranoid about its own security, Every rational actor (including Putin) knows that not a single NATO country is interested in invading Russia. He might have been worried about a democratic uprising in his country like Ukraine in 2014, but given how much an autocracy Russia has become, that's pretty unlikely now. Provide a way where security of both Europe and Russia can be provided for and peace will quickly follow. It's very clear that Putin wants to annex countries that he considers Russia's property (mostly former Soviet states). He has wars in Ukraine, Chechnya, and Georgia to back it. Putin's word in a peace treaty will be worth as much as him saying that he wouldn't invade Ukraine up till the invasion. Nada. The only thing that will work is military deterrence.
- hackinthebochs 2y ago
  >It's very clear that Putin wants to annex countries that he considers Russia's property Nothing more than fantasy that justifies the warhawk stance among liberals. It is completely disconnected from reality. What Russia wants is safety from NATO. NATO in Ukraine would have been a strategic noose from which Russia would never escape. Ukrainian neutrality lead to peace. Ukraine with NATO aspirations lead to this war. The simplest answer is the right one in this case.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    This is a false narrative that Putin propagates all the time (besides that Ukraine is run by nazis) and is not supported by history. He did attack Georgia and Chechnya. There was no danger at all of these countries joining NATO anytime soon. At any rate, it has been a severe miscalculation on Putin's part. He thought they could take Ukraine in days and the aggression led Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
    - hackinthebochs 2y ago
      >This is a false narrative that Putin propagates all the time It turns out that bad people do speak the truth sometimes, at least when the truth is in their corner: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32m/ru_pov_jeffrey_sachss_view_on_the_lead_up_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32...
      - kelnos 2y ago
        That "truth" is speculative fiction. Nothing more than unsubstantiated conspiracy-theory nonsense.
        hackinthebochs 2y ago
        It's weird to see people say stuff like this. Like, are you completely ignorant of the history of US initiated regime change around the world? Do you not find it at all plausible? The US has a very long history of doing this very sort of thing[1]. Do you think the three letter agencies have just been sitting on their hands in recent decades? I just don't get how people can engage in such willful ignorance. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
        kelnos 2y ago
        I can simultaneously find something plausible and see that there's historical precedent for it, but not accept unsubstantiated fantasy stories made up on the internet.
athrowaway3z 2y ago
> Provide a way where security of both Europe and Russia can be provided for and peace will quickly follow. So if i'm following you correctly, Russia's nuclear arsenal wasn't enough to provide security. Only thing we haven't tried for more security is to have every European nation be in control of their own nuclear arsenal? Its a bold claim, but by golly you've snorted enough foreign-sourced talking points that you might actually be right!
int_19h 2y ago
If EU dies, Russia will keep selling its oil and gas to European countries, but the latter will be more divided when it comes to negotiating prices. As a large business, you want your customers to be as powerless as possible so that you can jack up prices as high as you can.

by gg82 2y ago

account42 2y ago

> Russia is however a bit paranoid about its own security, having being invaded numerous times over the centuries and wants to keep control of its own economic destiny. In soviet Russua, Russia is the one constantly being invaded.

microtonal 2y ago

Russia is however a bit paranoid about its own security, Every rational actor (including Putin) knows that not a single NATO country is interested in invading Russia. He might have been worried about a democratic uprising in his country like Ukraine in 2014, but given how much an autocracy Russia has become, that's pretty unlikely now. Provide a way where security of both Europe and Russia can be provided for and peace will quickly follow. It's very clear that Putin wants to annex countries that he considers Russia's property (mostly former Soviet states). He has wars in Ukraine, Chechnya, and Georgia to back it. Putin's word in a peace treaty will be worth as much as him saying that he wouldn't invade Ukraine up till the invasion. Nada. The only thing that will work is military deterrence.

hackinthebochs 2y ago
>It's very clear that Putin wants to annex countries that he considers Russia's property Nothing more than fantasy that justifies the warhawk stance among liberals. It is completely disconnected from reality. What Russia wants is safety from NATO. NATO in Ukraine would have been a strategic noose from which Russia would never escape. Ukrainian neutrality lead to peace. Ukraine with NATO aspirations lead to this war. The simplest answer is the right one in this case.
- microtonal 2y ago
  This is a false narrative that Putin propagates all the time (besides that Ukraine is run by nazis) and is not supported by history. He did attack Georgia and Chechnya. There was no danger at all of these countries joining NATO anytime soon. At any rate, it has been a severe miscalculation on Putin's part. He thought they could take Ukraine in days and the aggression led Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
  - hackinthebochs 2y ago
    >This is a false narrative that Putin propagates all the time It turns out that bad people do speak the truth sometimes, at least when the truth is in their corner: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32m/ru_pov_jeffrey_sachss_view_on_the_lead_up_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32...
    - kelnos 2y ago
      That "truth" is speculative fiction. Nothing more than unsubstantiated conspiracy-theory nonsense.
      - hackinthebochs 2y ago
        It's weird to see people say stuff like this. Like, are you completely ignorant of the history of US initiated regime change around the world? Do you not find it at all plausible? The US has a very long history of doing this very sort of thing[1]. Do you think the three letter agencies have just been sitting on their hands in recent decades? I just don't get how people can engage in such willful ignorance. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
        kelnos 2y ago
        I can simultaneously find something plausible and see that there's historical precedent for it, but not accept unsubstantiated fantasy stories made up on the internet.

athrowaway3z 2y ago

> Provide a way where security of both Europe and Russia can be provided for and peace will quickly follow. So if i'm following you correctly, Russia's nuclear arsenal wasn't enough to provide security. Only thing we haven't tried for more security is to have every European nation be in control of their own nuclear arsenal? Its a bold claim, but by golly you've snorted enough foreign-sourced talking points that you might actually be right!

int_19h 2y ago

If EU dies, Russia will keep selling its oil and gas to European countries, but the latter will be more divided when it comes to negotiating prices. As a large business, you want your customers to be as powerless as possible so that you can jack up prices as high as you can.