3 ms·

The end of the war on Russia's terms is not positive for any European.

by piiritaja 2y ago

ossobuco 2y ago
[flagged]
- spiderfarmer 2y ago
  Yeah right, no sane person in the EU wants to be in any union with those thugs.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    I do! I'd much rather see that than a general war with Russia, thank you. Only the insane believe this war could end in anything but extinction or decades of misery and conflict.
    - spiderfarmer 2y ago
      I never felt the need to become friends with the biggest bully in high school. Why start now?
    - Tade0 2y ago
      They're large by territory, but small in terms of economy. Russians put a lot of weight on the former, but it's not very relevant in this day and age, especially considering how uninhabitable a huge chunk of it is. In any case, I'm surprised this is an issue for you, considering this war revealed how inept Russia's military actually is.
  - severino 2y ago
    Why not? We're already in union with the US, which also invades other countries when it feels like it, and nobody sees that as a problem. If anything, we should get along better with Russia because we share frontiers.
    - spiderfarmer 2y ago
      You’re getting there! If we were independent from the US right now, we would not be calling for a union right after they invaded a country on our doorsteps.
    - gizzlon 2y ago
      > and nobody sees that as a problem. Actually, many many people see that as a problem
    - badpun 2y ago
      The US does not want to conquer Europe. That's evidenced by the fact that they basically conquere and re-conquered (from the Germans) France, Italy and most of Germany in 1944-45, and then left, leaving those countries be. In the same time, Russia re-conquered Poland, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, East Germany - and never left. They were happy occuping those areas.
      - severino 2y ago
        > and most of Germany in 1944-45, and then left Then left? Well, considering the US has like 40 military bases in Germany, like almost 50.000 stationed personnel there, and there are still some restrictions on what Germany can or cannot do, I won't say they left. Heck, they can also bug the chancellor's phone for decades or blow up their energy infrastructure and nothing happens when it comes to light. I'm sure Russia would be more than satisfied if they could have kept all of that in their former satellite states including Ukraine.
        badpun 2y ago
        Left in the sense that Germans were allowed to govern themselves. Whereas countries reconquered by Russia were ruled by local cronies whose loyalty was to Moscow as much as to their home country. And, if those guys tried getting some independent ideas, Russian tanks rolled in to remove them from power (Budapest 1956, Prague 1968).
        2y ago
- tekkk 2y ago
  Lol. Yeah well if we are willing to trade our last shreds of integrity and capitulate that dictatorship is the winning strategy then sure. I mean, not to bring WW2 in the discussion, but back in that time people thought giving them what they want would lead to peace. These things also span decades or centuries so I think there will be time when Russia and the West will be closer again. It's just they have to stop their imperialism and grabbing land. Think they have enough already.
- audunw 2y ago
  That’s ridiculously naive. This WAS the path we were on. But EU didn’t reject Russia. Russia rejected EU. EU liberal democratic culture was a threat to Putins power. He did not want Russia or their immediate neighbours (which could influence Russia) to get any ideas about liberal democratic values. I agree that bringing Russia into EU - or at least being a good friend of EU - is the path to peace and safety. But EU can’t do this if Russia doesn’t want any part of it. In hindsight Russias economic integration was mainly an attempt to make EU think twice about responding when Russia harasses its neighbours. Russia is an imperial state with imperial ambitions. Every day on Russian state TV (with Putins implicit approval) they’re talking about how they will bomb and or take over Germany again. That the Baltic states and Ukraine rightfully belong to them. That Ukraine is full of nazis. How can you just ignore that and think everything will be all right if we just asked Russia very kindly to be friends again? And no, this has nothing to do with NATO expansion. Russia has nukes. NATO is not a credible military threat to Russia. Putin knew VERY well that his actions would push Finland and Sweden into NATO which completely invalidates the idea that he cares at all about NATO. You know… except that getting Ukraine into NATO would have removed the option of annexing Ukraine territory which was obviously unacceptable.
- arp242 2y ago
  Mate, we tried that for 20 years. And in especially in the later years, against better judgement and forgiving of A LOT of bad faith behaviour from the Russian government. And an outright dictatorship in the EU? lolno. The EU wanted to embrace Russia, desperately so. Many Europeans live with this notions "it's better if we all stop fighting and get along". That was certainly the prevalent attitude when I was growing up in the 90s in a post-cold war world. And they're right too, it is better for everyone. But some people aren't interested in what's better for everyone or even their country, they're only interested in what's best for them. Very sad a small group of assholes can just mess things up for so many people, but here we are. I think that's the hard lessons many Europeans have learned over the last few years, or are in the process of learning (myself included).
  - hackinthebochs 2y ago
    >Mate, we tried that for 20 years. We've been doing everything but sustaining neutral relations with Russia. Our foreign policy has been explicitly anti-Russian for decades. The Ukraine war is the blowback. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32m/ru_pov_jeffrey_sachss_view_on_the_lead_up_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32...
    - arp242 2y ago
      Like every dictator before him, Putin has fashioned a victimhood narrative. Trump does the same, as did Castro, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc. etc. etc. All these people always claim to be the victim. There are so many things to comment on in that video and I really don't have the time or interest. but I will comment on one thing: the US bombed Yugoslavia to stop a campaign of genocide. "Never again" also applies to the Balkans. Europe and the US did everything they could to NOT intervene. If anything, I think it's an embarrassment we didn't do more sooner. You could argue a little bit about whether it really should have been NATO (rather than the EU or US) that undertook the campaign, and details like that. But I don't think it's very important to the of it. Of course, that is left out by Sachs. He's repeating a fake victimhood narrative stringed together by half-truths, exaggerations, strategic forgetfulness, and outright nonsense.
- herculity275 2y ago
  Giving big Chamberlain energy.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    Giving big history ignorant energy.
rob_c 2y ago
OK, so we fight until there's nobody left alive for what exactly? Most of the Russian proposed peace plans are basically. "Leave it alone and stop fighting". Hardly the demand of Kiev on a silver platter and would save a lot of resoruces/lives. Is Ukranian pride worth it's economic destruction, worth lining the pockets of the war merchants or worth the continued spiraling death toll? It's a little less David vs Goliath and more aknin to Davids little cousin tommy with a waterpistol vs a flame thrower...
- piiritaja 2y ago
  You do realize that Russia's imperial ambitious won't just suddenly vanish away after the war in Ukraine? Russia will keep being Russia if we meet their terms.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - nickpp 2y ago
      I can see and hear its rockets every time Russia decide to target cities in Eastern Ukraine.
      - rob_c 2y ago
        Ok. How about when the west attacks Russia?
  - rob_c 2y ago
    There is a thing called history. Without context all aggression is blind. Please go away and read up. This is not a new blitzkreig despite how many like warm IQs day it is. If it was Kiev would be a parking lot and Germany would be negotiating Poland future already
arandomusername 2y ago
It will be positive for the thousands of Ukrainian men that get drafted and sent to die.

The end of the war on Russia's terms is not positive for any European.

ossobuco 2y ago

[flagged]

spiderfarmer 2y ago
Yeah right, no sane person in the EU wants to be in any union with those thugs.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  I do! I'd much rather see that than a general war with Russia, thank you. Only the insane believe this war could end in anything but extinction or decades of misery and conflict.
  - spiderfarmer 2y ago
    I never felt the need to become friends with the biggest bully in high school. Why start now?
  - Tade0 2y ago
    They're large by territory, but small in terms of economy. Russians put a lot of weight on the former, but it's not very relevant in this day and age, especially considering how uninhabitable a huge chunk of it is. In any case, I'm surprised this is an issue for you, considering this war revealed how inept Russia's military actually is.
- severino 2y ago
  Why not? We're already in union with the US, which also invades other countries when it feels like it, and nobody sees that as a problem. If anything, we should get along better with Russia because we share frontiers.
  - spiderfarmer 2y ago
    You’re getting there! If we were independent from the US right now, we would not be calling for a union right after they invaded a country on our doorsteps.
  - gizzlon 2y ago
    > and nobody sees that as a problem. Actually, many many people see that as a problem
  - badpun 2y ago
    The US does not want to conquer Europe. That's evidenced by the fact that they basically conquere and re-conquered (from the Germans) France, Italy and most of Germany in 1944-45, and then left, leaving those countries be. In the same time, Russia re-conquered Poland, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, East Germany - and never left. They were happy occuping those areas.
    - severino 2y ago
      > and most of Germany in 1944-45, and then left Then left? Well, considering the US has like 40 military bases in Germany, like almost 50.000 stationed personnel there, and there are still some restrictions on what Germany can or cannot do, I won't say they left. Heck, they can also bug the chancellor's phone for decades or blow up their energy infrastructure and nothing happens when it comes to light. I'm sure Russia would be more than satisfied if they could have kept all of that in their former satellite states including Ukraine.
      - badpun 2y ago
        Left in the sense that Germans were allowed to govern themselves. Whereas countries reconquered by Russia were ruled by local cronies whose loyalty was to Moscow as much as to their home country. And, if those guys tried getting some independent ideas, Russian tanks rolled in to remove them from power (Budapest 1956, Prague 1968).
        2y ago
tekkk 2y ago
Lol. Yeah well if we are willing to trade our last shreds of integrity and capitulate that dictatorship is the winning strategy then sure. I mean, not to bring WW2 in the discussion, but back in that time people thought giving them what they want would lead to peace. These things also span decades or centuries so I think there will be time when Russia and the West will be closer again. It's just they have to stop their imperialism and grabbing land. Think they have enough already.
audunw 2y ago
That’s ridiculously naive. This WAS the path we were on. But EU didn’t reject Russia. Russia rejected EU. EU liberal democratic culture was a threat to Putins power. He did not want Russia or their immediate neighbours (which could influence Russia) to get any ideas about liberal democratic values. I agree that bringing Russia into EU - or at least being a good friend of EU - is the path to peace and safety. But EU can’t do this if Russia doesn’t want any part of it. In hindsight Russias economic integration was mainly an attempt to make EU think twice about responding when Russia harasses its neighbours. Russia is an imperial state with imperial ambitions. Every day on Russian state TV (with Putins implicit approval) they’re talking about how they will bomb and or take over Germany again. That the Baltic states and Ukraine rightfully belong to them. That Ukraine is full of nazis. How can you just ignore that and think everything will be all right if we just asked Russia very kindly to be friends again? And no, this has nothing to do with NATO expansion. Russia has nukes. NATO is not a credible military threat to Russia. Putin knew VERY well that his actions would push Finland and Sweden into NATO which completely invalidates the idea that he cares at all about NATO. You know… except that getting Ukraine into NATO would have removed the option of annexing Ukraine territory which was obviously unacceptable.
arp242 2y ago
Mate, we tried that for 20 years. And in especially in the later years, against better judgement and forgiving of A LOT of bad faith behaviour from the Russian government. And an outright dictatorship in the EU? lolno. The EU wanted to embrace Russia, desperately so. Many Europeans live with this notions "it's better if we all stop fighting and get along". That was certainly the prevalent attitude when I was growing up in the 90s in a post-cold war world. And they're right too, it is better for everyone. But some people aren't interested in what's better for everyone or even their country, they're only interested in what's best for them. Very sad a small group of assholes can just mess things up for so many people, but here we are. I think that's the hard lessons many Europeans have learned over the last few years, or are in the process of learning (myself included).
- hackinthebochs 2y ago
  >Mate, we tried that for 20 years. We've been doing everything but sustaining neutral relations with Russia. Our foreign policy has been explicitly anti-Russian for decades. The Ukraine war is the blowback. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32m/ru_pov_jeffrey_sachss_view_on_the_lead_up_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32...
  - arp242 2y ago
    Like every dictator before him, Putin has fashioned a victimhood narrative. Trump does the same, as did Castro, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc. etc. etc. All these people always claim to be the victim. There are so many things to comment on in that video and I really don't have the time or interest. but I will comment on one thing: the US bombed Yugoslavia to stop a campaign of genocide. "Never again" also applies to the Balkans. Europe and the US did everything they could to NOT intervene. If anything, I think it's an embarrassment we didn't do more sooner. You could argue a little bit about whether it really should have been NATO (rather than the EU or US) that undertook the campaign, and details like that. But I don't think it's very important to the of it. Of course, that is left out by Sachs. He's repeating a fake victimhood narrative stringed together by half-truths, exaggerations, strategic forgetfulness, and outright nonsense.
herculity275 2y ago
Giving big Chamberlain energy.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  Giving big history ignorant energy.

rob_c 2y ago

OK, so we fight until there's nobody left alive for what exactly? Most of the Russian proposed peace plans are basically. "Leave it alone and stop fighting". Hardly the demand of Kiev on a silver platter and would save a lot of resoruces/lives. Is Ukranian pride worth it's economic destruction, worth lining the pockets of the war merchants or worth the continued spiraling death toll? It's a little less David vs Goliath and more aknin to Davids little cousin tommy with a waterpistol vs a flame thrower...

piiritaja 2y ago
You do realize that Russia's imperial ambitious won't just suddenly vanish away after the war in Ukraine? Russia will keep being Russia if we meet their terms.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - nickpp 2y ago
    I can see and hear its rockets every time Russia decide to target cities in Eastern Ukraine.
    - rob_c 2y ago
      Ok. How about when the west attacks Russia?
- rob_c 2y ago
  There is a thing called history. Without context all aggression is blind. Please go away and read up. This is not a new blitzkreig despite how many like warm IQs day it is. If it was Kiev would be a parking lot and Germany would be negotiating Poland future already

arandomusername 2y ago

It will be positive for the thousands of Ukrainian men that get drafted and sent to die.