3 ms·

If wages are suppressed and you look at some guy making less than you with a different skin color, I think you're looking at the wrong guy. I agree with what

If wages are suppressed and you look at some guy making less than you with a different skin color, I think you're looking at the wrong guy. I agree with what you say, I regret not having voted in my Italian city and now third places have been closed because not profitable

Jensson 2y ago
Supply of cheap labor lowers wages, not sure why you believe otherwise. There are other things that can lower wages, but cheap supply is a factor.
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  I'd rather have solidarity with other average Joes than put the guilt on them, just because they're enabling someone to pay lower wages shouldn't put the responsibility on their shoulders
- astrange 2y ago
  This is the lump of labor fallacy. Adding people increases demand more than supply, meaning it increases wages. Immigrants also have complementary skills to natives, which further reduces risk. There is no empirical evidence of anyone's wages being lowered by immigration. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-reduce https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-...
  - amarcheschi 2y ago
    Man that's one of the most surprising thing I could discover, like, ever. I've always thought that an increase in the number of workers dropped wages, and tbh the guilt has always fallen on the one who pays slave wages, not the people being paid peanuts. But that's a complete shift of paradigm, you should tell more people about it (although as he says, he probably won't change people's minds about it)
  - Jensson 2y ago
    That assumes immigrants are average people, but they are not they mostly work in some sectors. Those sectors will see a wage dump, other sectors might see a wage hike to compensate though. For example if immigrants are mostly highly paid programmers, you can expect waitresses etc to get a wage hike, but if immigrants are mostly uneducated young women then waitresses will probably see reduces wages. If you look you can see the groups who compete with the immigrants tend to be more hostile towards immigration, while the groups who doesn't see immigration in their sector aren't as hostile. Most immigrants tend to be men for example, so we would expect men to be more anti immigration since their jobs see more competition from it, and that is also what we see in opinion polling.
    - amarcheschi 2y ago
      The first study brought in example literally has to do with low skilled worker, and as seen it does not affect other workers in a negative way (if I'm getting what the guy is saying in his post)
      - Jensson 2y ago
        If you read this study it says they found a big negative effect on male workers: https://giovanniperi.ucdavis.edu/uploads/5/6/8/2/56826033/mariel_jun2_app.pdf https://giovanniperi.ucdavis.edu/uploads/5/6/8/2/56826033/ma... > Using a restricted subsample of high school dropouts and the March-CPS4, he finds a large and long lasting negative di↵erence in wages between Miami and its control in the 1982-1985 period. The article argues that is flawed since it only considered high school dropout men, but those are the main competitors to low skill immigrant jobs. If you include women and other groups who don't compete for the same low skill jobs then yeah you wont find an effect. Some of those might even see increased wages canceling out the reduced wages low skill men see, but that doesn't really help those low skill men.
        amarcheschi 2y ago
        It makes sense to say that at least a slice of population gets the small stick, but if I get it right the net benefits as a whole are bigger than the singular disadvantages, or no? I can't seem to understand that
  - tomp 2y ago
    In Europe, most immigrants (from third-world countries) are on welfare and are net welfare recipients. see graph here https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceUncensored/comments/1565sti/average_net_contribution_to_public_finances_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceUncensored/comments/1565sti/... from article https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/12/18/why-have-danes-turned-against-immigration https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/12/18/why-have-danes-t...

Jensson 2y ago

Supply of cheap labor lowers wages, not sure why you believe otherwise. There are other things that can lower wages, but cheap supply is a factor.

amarcheschi 2y ago
I'd rather have solidarity with other average Joes than put the guilt on them, just because they're enabling someone to pay lower wages shouldn't put the responsibility on their shoulders
astrange 2y ago
This is the lump of labor fallacy. Adding people increases demand more than supply, meaning it increases wages. Immigrants also have complementary skills to natives, which further reduces risk. There is no empirical evidence of anyone's wages being lowered by immigration. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-reduce https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-...
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  Man that's one of the most surprising thing I could discover, like, ever. I've always thought that an increase in the number of workers dropped wages, and tbh the guilt has always fallen on the one who pays slave wages, not the people being paid peanuts. But that's a complete shift of paradigm, you should tell more people about it (although as he says, he probably won't change people's minds about it)
- Jensson 2y ago
  That assumes immigrants are average people, but they are not they mostly work in some sectors. Those sectors will see a wage dump, other sectors might see a wage hike to compensate though. For example if immigrants are mostly highly paid programmers, you can expect waitresses etc to get a wage hike, but if immigrants are mostly uneducated young women then waitresses will probably see reduces wages. If you look you can see the groups who compete with the immigrants tend to be more hostile towards immigration, while the groups who doesn't see immigration in their sector aren't as hostile. Most immigrants tend to be men for example, so we would expect men to be more anti immigration since their jobs see more competition from it, and that is also what we see in opinion polling.
  - amarcheschi 2y ago
    The first study brought in example literally has to do with low skilled worker, and as seen it does not affect other workers in a negative way (if I'm getting what the guy is saying in his post)
    - Jensson 2y ago
      If you read this study it says they found a big negative effect on male workers: https://giovanniperi.ucdavis.edu/uploads/5/6/8/2/56826033/mariel_jun2_app.pdf https://giovanniperi.ucdavis.edu/uploads/5/6/8/2/56826033/ma... > Using a restricted subsample of high school dropouts and the March-CPS4, he finds a large and long lasting negative di↵erence in wages between Miami and its control in the 1982-1985 period. The article argues that is flawed since it only considered high school dropout men, but those are the main competitors to low skill immigrant jobs. If you include women and other groups who don't compete for the same low skill jobs then yeah you wont find an effect. Some of those might even see increased wages canceling out the reduced wages low skill men see, but that doesn't really help those low skill men.
      - amarcheschi 2y ago
        It makes sense to say that at least a slice of population gets the small stick, but if I get it right the net benefits as a whole are bigger than the singular disadvantages, or no? I can't seem to understand that
- tomp 2y ago
  In Europe, most immigrants (from third-world countries) are on welfare and are net welfare recipients. see graph here https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceUncensored/comments/1565sti/average_net_contribution_to_public_finances_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceUncensored/comments/1565sti/... from article https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/12/18/why-have-danes-turned-against-immigration https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/12/18/why-have-danes-t...