5 ms·

You would need to show up with data to back up those claims. I live in (around) a major city. Sure it's overcrowded but that has nothing to do with foreign imm

You would need to show up with data to back up those claims. I live in (around) a major city. Sure it's overcrowded but that has nothing to do with foreign immigration and everything to do about it being a economic powerhouse. Quality of life has been increasing since the city has invested/is investing in more transportation/bikeable lanes/better air pollution standards/less noise. Also laws that are forcing better insulation standards are a net quality of life both in terms of comfort and footing the bill. Even the people who really need to take their cars will benefit because there will less traffic jams on account of 1. people for whom it was mostly comfort leaving the road and 2. reduced speed means less unnecessary braking to get out and in the motorway around the city. Strained services seems to be because of budget tightening. It's a policy choice that has to do with ideology (don't fund a service when it could made profitable by outsourcing it) and trying to save on budgets because of a bad economy. Again you'd have to back up with data that it has something to do with immigration. I could on and on but basically what you are saying there was too much new people too fast but I don't think this is nowhere true in my western european country. The only thing that could worry is the minorities enclaves but it's not hard to break up a ghetto by opening it up sociogeographically and economically, you just need to the political will to do so but instead it's left in place and used as convenient fear-mongering tool for politicians.

amarcheschi 2y ago
If wages are suppressed and you look at some guy making less than you with a different skin color, I think you're looking at the wrong guy. I agree with what you say, I regret not having voted in my Italian city and now third places have been closed because not profitable
- Jensson 2y ago
  Supply of cheap labor lowers wages, not sure why you believe otherwise. There are other things that can lower wages, but cheap supply is a factor.
  - amarcheschi 2y ago
    I'd rather have solidarity with other average Joes than put the guilt on them, just because they're enabling someone to pay lower wages shouldn't put the responsibility on their shoulders
  - astrange 2y ago
    This is the lump of labor fallacy. Adding people increases demand more than supply, meaning it increases wages. Immigrants also have complementary skills to natives, which further reduces risk. There is no empirical evidence of anyone's wages being lowered by immigration. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-reduce https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-...
    - amarcheschi 2y ago
      Man that's one of the most surprising thing I could discover, like, ever. I've always thought that an increase in the number of workers dropped wages, and tbh the guilt has always fallen on the one who pays slave wages, not the people being paid peanuts. But that's a complete shift of paradigm, you should tell more people about it (although as he says, he probably won't change people's minds about it)
    - Jensson 2y ago
      That assumes immigrants are average people, but they are not they mostly work in some sectors. Those sectors will see a wage dump, other sectors might see a wage hike to compensate though. For example if immigrants are mostly highly paid programmers, you can expect waitresses etc to get a wage hike, but if immigrants are mostly uneducated young women then waitresses will probably see reduces wages. If you look you can see the groups who compete with the immigrants tend to be more hostile towards immigration, while the groups who doesn't see immigration in their sector aren't as hostile. Most immigrants tend to be men for example, so we would expect men to be more anti immigration since their jobs see more competition from it, and that is also what we see in opinion polling.
      - amarcheschi 2y ago
sampo 2y ago
> Sure it's overcrowded The Guardian (a left-leaning newspaper) estimates that leaving the housing crisis unfixed also fuels the far right parties. https://www.theguardian.com/news/article/2024/may/06/fix-europe-housing-crisis-risk-fuelling-far-right-un-expert-warns https://www.theguardian.com/news/article/2024/may/06/fix-eur...
- VagabundoP 2y ago
  The issue here is that there is a global developed world housing crisis. There was a global inflation crisis. There's no quick fixes for these problems.
  - sampo 2y ago
    > There's no quick fixes Sure is. Change zoning rules to allow building a lot more. Let people and corporations build using their own money. No need for government to use any money, just change the rules. Collect property taxes from the new buildings.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      Global housing shortage. Build more houses? No! Can’t do that, we need the money for forever wars everywhere! But the Raytheon shareholders can use the profits to add solar panels, so it’s all good.
      - lenkite 2y ago
        Lloyd Austin - Biden & Harris's Secretary of Defense - serves on the board of Raytheon. So wars are natural.
- cassepipe 2y ago
  I don't know about London but imho people would not equate the housing crisis with illegal immigration since those people can only live together in decrepit apartments when not in the streets. It takes a billionaire funded media ecosystem (as I have in my country) to consistently hammer in the fact that those are linked in people's head.

amarcheschi 2y ago

If wages are suppressed and you look at some guy making less than you with a different skin color, I think you're looking at the wrong guy. I agree with what you say, I regret not having voted in my Italian city and now third places have been closed because not profitable

Jensson 2y ago
Supply of cheap labor lowers wages, not sure why you believe otherwise. There are other things that can lower wages, but cheap supply is a factor.
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  I'd rather have solidarity with other average Joes than put the guilt on them, just because they're enabling someone to pay lower wages shouldn't put the responsibility on their shoulders
- astrange 2y ago
  This is the lump of labor fallacy. Adding people increases demand more than supply, meaning it increases wages. Immigrants also have complementary skills to natives, which further reduces risk. There is no empirical evidence of anyone's wages being lowered by immigration. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-reduce https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-...
  - amarcheschi 2y ago
    Man that's one of the most surprising thing I could discover, like, ever. I've always thought that an increase in the number of workers dropped wages, and tbh the guilt has always fallen on the one who pays slave wages, not the people being paid peanuts. But that's a complete shift of paradigm, you should tell more people about it (although as he says, he probably won't change people's minds about it)
  - Jensson 2y ago
    That assumes immigrants are average people, but they are not they mostly work in some sectors. Those sectors will see a wage dump, other sectors might see a wage hike to compensate though. For example if immigrants are mostly highly paid programmers, you can expect waitresses etc to get a wage hike, but if immigrants are mostly uneducated young women then waitresses will probably see reduces wages. If you look you can see the groups who compete with the immigrants tend to be more hostile towards immigration, while the groups who doesn't see immigration in their sector aren't as hostile. Most immigrants tend to be men for example, so we would expect men to be more anti immigration since their jobs see more competition from it, and that is also what we see in opinion polling.
    - amarcheschi 2y ago

sampo 2y ago

> Sure it's overcrowded The Guardian (a left-leaning newspaper) estimates that leaving the housing crisis unfixed also fuels the far right parties. https://www.theguardian.com/news/article/2024/may/06/fix-europe-housing-crisis-risk-fuelling-far-right-un-expert-warns https://www.theguardian.com/news/article/2024/may/06/fix-eur...

VagabundoP 2y ago
The issue here is that there is a global developed world housing crisis. There was a global inflation crisis. There's no quick fixes for these problems.
- sampo 2y ago
  > There's no quick fixes Sure is. Change zoning rules to allow building a lot more. Let people and corporations build using their own money. No need for government to use any money, just change the rules. Collect property taxes from the new buildings.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    Global housing shortage. Build more houses? No! Can’t do that, we need the money for forever wars everywhere! But the Raytheon shareholders can use the profits to add solar panels, so it’s all good.
    - lenkite 2y ago
      Lloyd Austin - Biden & Harris's Secretary of Defense - serves on the board of Raytheon. So wars are natural.
cassepipe 2y ago
I don't know about London but imho people would not equate the housing crisis with illegal immigration since those people can only live together in decrepit apartments when not in the streets. It takes a billionaire funded media ecosystem (as I have in my country) to consistently hammer in the fact that those are linked in people's head.