4 ms·

How do you figure that not providing life-saving medical treatment to a pregnant mother and letting her and her baby die is going to protect that unborn life?

by siffin 2y ago

account42 2y ago
Well for one, strawmen are very flammable and fire is bad for unborn life.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
gred 2y ago
I think you're putting words in my mouth. IMO in this scenario the medical decision-making process should weigh both lives equally. Doctors make life-and-death decisions all the time, and I'm OK with that as long as one life is not considered "lesser". I understand that reasonable people can disagree on when life truly starts, though.
- siffin 2y ago
  Doctors aren't doing that though, they're saying they won't touch people in case they are seen to be breaking laws, and people are already dying, how can you not understand the nuance?
  - gred 2y ago
    Which laws, and which doctors?
    - tzs 2y ago
      Here's one recent example: https://www.propublica.org/article/josseli-barnica-death-miscarriage-texas-abortion-ban https://www.propublica.org/article/josseli-barnica-death-mis...
      - gred 2y ago
        Thank you for the example, I do hope that they clarify that gray area in the law. It's a tough situation; they were dealing with probabilities (sometimes infections occur, and sometimes these infections lead to death) rather than a clear-cut "we can save one of these two lives if we perform an abortion".
        siffin 2y ago
        Funny how treatment like this used to be a clear-cut decision made by the only experts who can make it (medical professionals), but now innocent people and babies are dying because of peoples random religious beliefs, that obviously have nothing to do with medicine. It has nothing to do with medicine because there isn't a doctor in the world who would willingly let a patient die when they could have treated them - unless they believe they will end up in jail for it - which is exactly what is happening - and that blood is on your hands for defending this absolute crap.
        gred 2y ago
        Your calculus ignores the hundreds of thousands of unborn lives that will be saved by allowing states to democratically establish their own abortion laws. Since you do not recognize the massive benefit, you see only the cost... I can understand your frustration, but perhaps you can understand why I don't share it.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- arp242 2y ago
  Putting aside the general disagreement on the topic, one of the major concerns is all of this isn't really happening, with some of these laws and prosecutions just being so strict. Take [1] for example: when doctors are unable or afraid to intervene even when the baby has already died. It's just so completely unnecessary and purely the result of an overly strict abortion ban. This is hardly the first or only story of its kind. [1]: https://people.com/texas-teen-suffering-miscarriage-dies-due-to-abortion-ban-8738512 https://people.com/texas-teen-suffering-miscarriage-dies-due...
cbeach 2y ago
Firstly, Roe vs Wade was overturned in 2022 during the BIDEN term. Secondly, Trump has never called for a federal abortion ban, nor, in fact, a state abortion ban. Thirdly, there are currently exemptions in ALL states that protect abortion if it is a life-saving necessity for the mother. Trump has never proposed removing these exemptions.
- siffin 2y ago
  Search the news for mothers and their babies dying because doctors in states which have enacted abortion bans refuse treatment. That's what happens. Rove vs Wade was overturned because of a right wing stacked supreme court, which has nothing to do with the sitting president. Unless you think the executive has control over judicial decisions? Trump is enabling all sorts of backward thinking ideology to fruit, directly or indirectly.
  - cbeach 2y ago
    Just to be clear I am pro-choice and I support mothers and their bodily autonomy. I think the Dems will continue to lose elections if, in their hysteria, they attibute bad things to Trump that had little to do with him. If the Dems and their supporters care more about the Two Minutes Hate against Trump than creating their own positive vision of America, then they'll continue to lose. Americans are a positive and patriotic populace. That's why Trump's "Make America Great Again" messaging resonates with them.
    - siffin 2y ago
      Why do right wingers think democracy is about beating some other party, rather than improving the lives of citizens? You're implying that unless the major left wing party kow-tows to the emotional needs of extreme right-wingers, then they should be allowed to destroy the country because mummy wasn't nice to them? How about actually focussing on improving things instead of crying about every little thing.
      - account42 2y ago

How do you figure that not providing life-saving medical treatment to a pregnant mother and letting her and her baby die is going to protect that unborn life?

by siffin 2y ago

How do you figure that not providing life-saving medical treatment to a pregnant mother and letting her and her baby die is going to protect that unborn life?

account42 2y ago

Well for one, strawmen are very flammable and fire is bad for unborn life.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

gred 2y ago

I think you're putting words in my mouth. IMO in this scenario the medical decision-making process should weigh both lives equally. Doctors make life-and-death decisions all the time, and I'm OK with that as long as one life is not considered "lesser". I understand that reasonable people can disagree on when life truly starts, though.

siffin 2y ago
Doctors aren't doing that though, they're saying they won't touch people in case they are seen to be breaking laws, and people are already dying, how can you not understand the nuance?
- gred 2y ago
  Which laws, and which doctors?
  - tzs 2y ago
    Here's one recent example: https://www.propublica.org/article/josseli-barnica-death-miscarriage-texas-abortion-ban https://www.propublica.org/article/josseli-barnica-death-mis...
    - gred 2y ago
      Thank you for the example, I do hope that they clarify that gray area in the law. It's a tough situation; they were dealing with probabilities (sometimes infections occur, and sometimes these infections lead to death) rather than a clear-cut "we can save one of these two lives if we perform an abortion".
      - siffin 2y ago
        Funny how treatment like this used to be a clear-cut decision made by the only experts who can make it (medical professionals), but now innocent people and babies are dying because of peoples random religious beliefs, that obviously have nothing to do with medicine. It has nothing to do with medicine because there isn't a doctor in the world who would willingly let a patient die when they could have treated them - unless they believe they will end up in jail for it - which is exactly what is happening - and that blood is on your hands for defending this absolute crap.
        gred 2y ago
        Your calculus ignores the hundreds of thousands of unborn lives that will be saved by allowing states to democratically establish their own abortion laws. Since you do not recognize the massive benefit, you see only the cost... I can understand your frustration, but perhaps you can understand why I don't share it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
arp242 2y ago
Putting aside the general disagreement on the topic, one of the major concerns is all of this isn't really happening, with some of these laws and prosecutions just being so strict. Take [1] for example: when doctors are unable or afraid to intervene even when the baby has already died. It's just so completely unnecessary and purely the result of an overly strict abortion ban. This is hardly the first or only story of its kind. [1]: https://people.com/texas-teen-suffering-miscarriage-dies-due-to-abortion-ban-8738512 https://people.com/texas-teen-suffering-miscarriage-dies-due...

cbeach 2y ago

Firstly, Roe vs Wade was overturned in 2022 during the BIDEN term. Secondly, Trump has never called for a federal abortion ban, nor, in fact, a state abortion ban. Thirdly, there are currently exemptions in ALL states that protect abortion if it is a life-saving necessity for the mother. Trump has never proposed removing these exemptions.

siffin 2y ago
Search the news for mothers and their babies dying because doctors in states which have enacted abortion bans refuse treatment. That's what happens. Rove vs Wade was overturned because of a right wing stacked supreme court, which has nothing to do with the sitting president. Unless you think the executive has control over judicial decisions? Trump is enabling all sorts of backward thinking ideology to fruit, directly or indirectly.
- cbeach 2y ago
  Just to be clear I am pro-choice and I support mothers and their bodily autonomy. I think the Dems will continue to lose elections if, in their hysteria, they attibute bad things to Trump that had little to do with him. If the Dems and their supporters care more about the Two Minutes Hate against Trump than creating their own positive vision of America, then they'll continue to lose. Americans are a positive and patriotic populace. That's why Trump's "Make America Great Again" messaging resonates with them.
  - siffin 2y ago
    Why do right wingers think democracy is about beating some other party, rather than improving the lives of citizens? You're implying that unless the major left wing party kow-tows to the emotional needs of extreme right-wingers, then they should be allowed to destroy the country because mummy wasn't nice to them? How about actually focussing on improving things instead of crying about every little thing.
    - account42 2y ago