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You know that Hitler was literally voted into power, right? I am NOT saying Trump is literally Hitler, but the idea that democratic vote can't have un-democrat

by Xeamek 2y ago

You know that Hitler was literally voted into power, right? I am NOT saying Trump is literally Hitler, but the idea that democratic vote can't have un-democratic outcome in the long run is simply false. It can, and history showed us that more then once

snickerbockers 2y ago
That's the problem with this statement: Trump is not Hitler and any hypothetical "undemocratic outcomes" aren't apparent in the extreme short term. He hasn't run on a platform of eliminating democracy and there isn't any indication at this point that he will.
- dsmithn 2y ago
  “Except for day one”
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  He ran on a platform that he won the 2020 election, and it was stolen. How is that not anti-democratic?
  - logicchains 2y ago
    If he and his supporters genuinely believe that, it's an extremely democratic position.
    - wyre 2y ago
      Remind me what its called when someone's geniune belief's don't align with reality?
  - ImJamal 2y ago
    You are going with the assumption that the election wasn't stolen. If you are correct then Trumo would be taking an anti-democratic position. If the people's will was genuinely to elect him and the election was actually stolen then he would be taking the democratic position.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - davrosthedalek 2y ago
      Not quite. If he actually believes that the election was stolen, whether or not it was, it would be a democratic position. He would be right or wrong, but that doesn't change that his goal would be to protect democracy. If he actually believes the election was not stolen, whether or not it was, but act as if it was stolen, it would be un-democratic position, because he would, is his perceived reality, try to subvert a democratic process.
      - lofenfew 2y ago
        People can adapt their beliefs to be convenient to them. In fact, people's beliefs usually correspond to whatever is most convenient. If he should have known that the election was not stolen, then claiming otherwise would be undemocratic, regardless of his true beliefs (which are unknowable anyways).
- bspammer 2y ago
  https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-tells-christians-they-wont-have-vote-after-this-election-2024-07-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-tells-christians-they...
- kristiandupont 2y ago
  He literally tried to overthrow the election 4 years ago. I mean, he wasn't exactly being subtle about it!
  - Jensson 2y ago
    But in the end he didn't end Democracy, he let the democratic procedures take place, a fascist wouldn't do that. > He literally tried to overthrow the election 4 years ago Not openly, the people who went to the white house weren't under Trumps command. He argued against the election result using the proper tools of the democracy, you are allowed to do that. I'm not sure why worry now when we already know he handed over the power once. Maybe it wasn't willingly but he will be forced to step down in 4 years as well.
    - Xeamek 2y ago
      >But in the end he didn't end Democracy, he let the democratic procedures take place, a fascist wouldn't do that. Fascist wouldn't fail? Again, You know Hitler literally tried a coup, failed and then switched to 'democratic' means?
      - Jensson 2y ago
        > Again, You know Hitler literally tried a coup, failed and then switched to 'democratic' means? Hitler never left the seat of power once he got it. Trump did. They are not the same. Hitler did a coup to try to get power, he failed at that, Trump already succeeded grabbing power (he got elected) and then left it.
        sentient_aloe 2y ago
        Which he said he regrets doing. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/03/us/politics/trump-pa-rally-election.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/03/us/politics/trump-pa-rall...
    - kristiandupont 2y ago
      > he let the democratic procedures take place, a fascist wouldn't do that. He did so because he had no other choice. Mike Pence, of all people, rescued democracy. If it hadn't been for him, Donald Trump would not accepted the transfer of power. And this is what the difference boils down to. You and I both know that Trump would have declared himself the winner no matter what the vote count had been. And we also both know that Harris is going to concede to Trump because the vote count says so.
- jamincan 2y ago
  I've not been as immersed in the presidential race, but hasn't he explicitly said he wants to be a dictator, this is the last vote you will need, we should stop so and so from voting and so on? Like, right out of his mouth? How is that not an undemocratic platform?
  - snickerbockers 2y ago
    > he wants to be a dictator The full quote was that he was going to be a dictator but only on the first day. It's probably one of the dumbest things he's ever said, but the fact that he put a limit on his own supposed dictatorship contradicts him being a dictator. At any rate, while I'm not a fan of what he said, he definitely did not preclude the continuation of American democracy even if interpreted in the most literal possible way. > this is the last vote you will need He said that you [the people at his rally] aren't going to need to vote anymore because hes going to accomplish all his goals this time. Not that there won't be a vote or that his supporters won't be allowed to vote. They definitely won't be allowed to vote for him since he'll be at up against the term limit. > we should stop so and so from voting and so on This one I've never even heard before outside of him claiming that his opponents want to let non citizens vote
    - ks2048 2y ago
      I believe people who claim he will "end democracy" do not believe he will literally put an end to elections. Many places widely considered "undemocratic" also have elections. > They definitely won't be allowed to vote for him since he'll be at up against the term limit. I'm sure if Trump were younger and up against term limits, he (and his party) would simply ignore them or change the rules. That's the kind of democracy-ending actions that could easily happen. Lucky for us, I think he's too old for this particular problem.
      - BadHumans 2y ago
        Trump is not the end he is the means to an end. His party will absolutely change the rules just to take advantage of them in the future.
- formerly_proven 2y ago
  > hasn't run on a platform of eliminating democracy Didn't he literally say in his victory speech that he's now elected the 47th president, as he also was the 46th? In the story Trump tells, he literally already is a third-term president.
  - dazilcher 2y ago
    He did not say that [1]. I can't decide whether people keep misrepresenting his statements intentionally, or there's some psychological process in play that prevents them from parsing his speech. He is a terrible communicator after all. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI9fbbQ-aTo&t=96s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI9fbbQ-aTo&t=96s
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      He speaks backwards and from the inside out of sentences. Changes subject mid sentence. Etc. I think normal people think that is OK but academics thinks it sounds stupid. In the beginning I believe he got a boost from journalists feeling smart by nitpicking that to manufacture some "gotcha". He is way to easy to misquote to resist the temptation.
- wyatt_dolores 2y ago
  He has literally said "Vote for me, and you'll never have to vote again."
  - Izkata 2y ago
    That's out of context. He was trying to reach people who just don't vote in general, telling them they only needed to bother this one time and he'll fix their problems (costs, economy, etc) so well they can go back to not bothering to vote.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Yeah, they'll be so "fixed" nobody will have the ability to "unfix" them.
- Sabinus 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capito... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_... This stuff was not merely spicy words, it was dangerous. Democracy runs on norms and good people, and is precious and hard won. Trump being in power is a risk.
- FractalHQ 2y ago
  What about when he said he wanted to be dictator so people wouldn’t have to vote anymore? And when he made himself above the law with MAGA court justices? Or talked about a firing squad for his opponents and opening fire on peaceful protestors? Or when he attempted a violent coup on the White House? Or when he praised Hitler and asked for generals like Hitlers that will do anything he says without question? Or when he praised Putin, Kim Jun Un, and other the dictators of the world?
- ks2048 2y ago
  He said many times very explicitly he will be a dictator on day one. We'll find out in a few months what the means exactly. I honestly don't know.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  He absolutely said vote for me and you'll never have to vote again because we'll have it fixed. How is that not running on eliminating democracy?
Clubber 2y ago
>You know that Hitler was literally voted into power, right? He was not. This is a popular misconception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power
- AshamedCaptain 2y ago
  What do you call being the majority party, winning referendums, etc? Certainly there is a lot of voter intimidation, control of the press, etc. behind it, but I think that's precisely what is being debated here.
  - Clubber 2y ago
    >What do you call being the majority party, winning referendums, etc? Nazi's were not the majority party when Hitler ran for president, they were the largest party, but not majority. They weren't even a majority even when Hitler was appointed (not voted) chancellor by Paul von Hindenburg, the man who won the presidential election. There were a few more steps before he acquired absolute power, but none of them involved voting. It's interesting, read the article. Like I said, it's a common misconception.
    - AshamedCaptain 2y ago
      Well the largest party (as per HN rules please "use the best form of the argument", no need to nitpick), and not by a small margin -- at least 10% over the 2nd largest. And you'll still argue he did not "win" elections? (You could not "vote" a chancellor. In a lot of perfectly valid democracies, the PM position is always appointed, never directly voted, usually from the larger party or the at least the candidate most likely to pass a (constructive) motion of no confidence. So he was elected legally per the correct democratic process. Cleanly/Fairly -- that's another question. But would you really be surprised Hitler could win elections? He had pretty ridiculously good reputation in some circles. He would have likely polled pretty well even in the US.).
      - 2y ago

by Xeamek 2y ago

snickerbockers 2y ago

That's the problem with this statement: Trump is not Hitler and any hypothetical "undemocratic outcomes" aren't apparent in the extreme short term. He hasn't run on a platform of eliminating democracy and there isn't any indication at this point that he will.

dsmithn 2y ago
“Except for day one”
onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
He ran on a platform that he won the 2020 election, and it was stolen. How is that not anti-democratic?
- logicchains 2y ago
  If he and his supporters genuinely believe that, it's an extremely democratic position.
  - wyre 2y ago
    Remind me what its called when someone's geniune belief's don't align with reality?
- ImJamal 2y ago
  You are going with the assumption that the election wasn't stolen. If you are correct then Trumo would be taking an anti-democratic position. If the people's will was genuinely to elect him and the election was actually stolen then he would be taking the democratic position.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - davrosthedalek 2y ago
    Not quite. If he actually believes that the election was stolen, whether or not it was, it would be a democratic position. He would be right or wrong, but that doesn't change that his goal would be to protect democracy. If he actually believes the election was not stolen, whether or not it was, but act as if it was stolen, it would be un-democratic position, because he would, is his perceived reality, try to subvert a democratic process.
    - lofenfew 2y ago
      People can adapt their beliefs to be convenient to them. In fact, people's beliefs usually correspond to whatever is most convenient. If he should have known that the election was not stolen, then claiming otherwise would be undemocratic, regardless of his true beliefs (which are unknowable anyways).
bspammer 2y ago
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-tells-christians-they-wont-have-vote-after-this-election-2024-07-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-tells-christians-they...
kristiandupont 2y ago
He literally tried to overthrow the election 4 years ago. I mean, he wasn't exactly being subtle about it!
- Jensson 2y ago
  But in the end he didn't end Democracy, he let the democratic procedures take place, a fascist wouldn't do that. > He literally tried to overthrow the election 4 years ago Not openly, the people who went to the white house weren't under Trumps command. He argued against the election result using the proper tools of the democracy, you are allowed to do that. I'm not sure why worry now when we already know he handed over the power once. Maybe it wasn't willingly but he will be forced to step down in 4 years as well.
  - Xeamek 2y ago
    >But in the end he didn't end Democracy, he let the democratic procedures take place, a fascist wouldn't do that. Fascist wouldn't fail? Again, You know Hitler literally tried a coup, failed and then switched to 'democratic' means?
    - Jensson 2y ago
      > Again, You know Hitler literally tried a coup, failed and then switched to 'democratic' means? Hitler never left the seat of power once he got it. Trump did. They are not the same. Hitler did a coup to try to get power, he failed at that, Trump already succeeded grabbing power (he got elected) and then left it.
      - sentient_aloe 2y ago
        Which he said he regrets doing. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/03/us/politics/trump-pa-rally-election.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/03/us/politics/trump-pa-rall...
  - kristiandupont 2y ago
    > he let the democratic procedures take place, a fascist wouldn't do that. He did so because he had no other choice. Mike Pence, of all people, rescued democracy. If it hadn't been for him, Donald Trump would not accepted the transfer of power. And this is what the difference boils down to. You and I both know that Trump would have declared himself the winner no matter what the vote count had been. And we also both know that Harris is going to concede to Trump because the vote count says so.
jamincan 2y ago
I've not been as immersed in the presidential race, but hasn't he explicitly said he wants to be a dictator, this is the last vote you will need, we should stop so and so from voting and so on? Like, right out of his mouth? How is that not an undemocratic platform?
- snickerbockers 2y ago
  > he wants to be a dictator The full quote was that he was going to be a dictator but only on the first day. It's probably one of the dumbest things he's ever said, but the fact that he put a limit on his own supposed dictatorship contradicts him being a dictator. At any rate, while I'm not a fan of what he said, he definitely did not preclude the continuation of American democracy even if interpreted in the most literal possible way. > this is the last vote you will need He said that you [the people at his rally] aren't going to need to vote anymore because hes going to accomplish all his goals this time. Not that there won't be a vote or that his supporters won't be allowed to vote. They definitely won't be allowed to vote for him since he'll be at up against the term limit. > we should stop so and so from voting and so on This one I've never even heard before outside of him claiming that his opponents want to let non citizens vote
  - ks2048 2y ago
    I believe people who claim he will "end democracy" do not believe he will literally put an end to elections. Many places widely considered "undemocratic" also have elections. > They definitely won't be allowed to vote for him since he'll be at up against the term limit. I'm sure if Trump were younger and up against term limits, he (and his party) would simply ignore them or change the rules. That's the kind of democracy-ending actions that could easily happen. Lucky for us, I think he's too old for this particular problem.
    - BadHumans 2y ago
      Trump is not the end he is the means to an end. His party will absolutely change the rules just to take advantage of them in the future.
formerly_proven 2y ago
> hasn't run on a platform of eliminating democracy Didn't he literally say in his victory speech that he's now elected the 47th president, as he also was the 46th? In the story Trump tells, he literally already is a third-term president.
- dazilcher 2y ago
  He did not say that [1]. I can't decide whether people keep misrepresenting his statements intentionally, or there's some psychological process in play that prevents them from parsing his speech. He is a terrible communicator after all. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI9fbbQ-aTo&t=96s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI9fbbQ-aTo&t=96s
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    He speaks backwards and from the inside out of sentences. Changes subject mid sentence. Etc. I think normal people think that is OK but academics thinks it sounds stupid. In the beginning I believe he got a boost from journalists feeling smart by nitpicking that to manufacture some "gotcha". He is way to easy to misquote to resist the temptation.
wyatt_dolores 2y ago
He has literally said "Vote for me, and you'll never have to vote again."
- Izkata 2y ago
  That's out of context. He was trying to reach people who just don't vote in general, telling them they only needed to bother this one time and he'll fix their problems (costs, economy, etc) so well they can go back to not bothering to vote.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Yeah, they'll be so "fixed" nobody will have the ability to "unfix" them.
Sabinus 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capito... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_... This stuff was not merely spicy words, it was dangerous. Democracy runs on norms and good people, and is precious and hard won. Trump being in power is a risk.
FractalHQ 2y ago
What about when he said he wanted to be dictator so people wouldn’t have to vote anymore? And when he made himself above the law with MAGA court justices? Or talked about a firing squad for his opponents and opening fire on peaceful protestors? Or when he attempted a violent coup on the White House? Or when he praised Hitler and asked for generals like Hitlers that will do anything he says without question? Or when he praised Putin, Kim Jun Un, and other the dictators of the world?
ks2048 2y ago
He said many times very explicitly he will be a dictator on day one. We'll find out in a few months what the means exactly. I honestly don't know.
BadHumans 2y ago
He absolutely said vote for me and you'll never have to vote again because we'll have it fixed. How is that not running on eliminating democracy?

Clubber 2y ago

>You know that Hitler was literally voted into power, right? He was not. This is a popular misconception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power

AshamedCaptain 2y ago
What do you call being the majority party, winning referendums, etc? Certainly there is a lot of voter intimidation, control of the press, etc. behind it, but I think that's precisely what is being debated here.
- Clubber 2y ago
  >What do you call being the majority party, winning referendums, etc? Nazi's were not the majority party when Hitler ran for president, they were the largest party, but not majority. They weren't even a majority even when Hitler was appointed (not voted) chancellor by Paul von Hindenburg, the man who won the presidential election. There were a few more steps before he acquired absolute power, but none of them involved voting. It's interesting, read the article. Like I said, it's a common misconception.
  - AshamedCaptain 2y ago
    Well the largest party (as per HN rules please "use the best form of the argument", no need to nitpick), and not by a small margin -- at least 10% over the 2nd largest. And you'll still argue he did not "win" elections? (You could not "vote" a chancellor. In a lot of perfectly valid democracies, the PM position is always appointed, never directly voted, usually from the larger party or the at least the candidate most likely to pass a (constructive) motion of no confidence. So he was elected legally per the correct democratic process. Cleanly/Fairly -- that's another question. But would you really be surprised Hitler could win elections? He had pretty ridiculously good reputation in some circles. He would have likely polled pretty well even in the US.).
    - 2y ago