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> find middle class folk ... to be uptight and terribly afraid of causing/receiving offence. I think it's the betwixt and between dynamic: working class folk k

> find middle class folk ... to be uptight and terribly afraid of causing/receiving offence. I think it's the betwixt and between dynamic: working class folk know they're living on what they have coming; upper class folk know they're living on what they have; but middle class folk, no matter how they live, are only middle class folk if other middle class folk agree they are — hence the insecurity, and at one reason for the conformity. (in the UK, I think U vs non-U started as a joke, yet was popularised by exactly the people it had been meant to be taking the piss from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English )

intelVISA 2y ago
Well it's not UK specicfic but as there's only really workers and owners, they could be insecure about being a slightly better paid worker?
- lazide 2y ago
  Also, an owner - of a very limited amount. Junior partner, at best.
- immibis 2y ago
  There are many taxonomies of people. Workers vs owners is one, and relates to the relationship between people and the means of production. Other taxonomies are young vs old, male vs female, and class structures with more than two classes. Notice that this thread has been about social class, more than economic class.
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago
  That's one way of looking at it. But there are other ways of slicing and dicing an populace and it's capital.
vundercind 2y ago
One point that Fussell’s Class: A Guide Through the American Status System makes over and over (maybe never quite explicitly, but implicitly, throughout) is that Fussell’s “middle class” is essentially defined by being thoroughly pathetic. They’re the most class-concerned, by far, desperately anxious to signal higher class, while having no clue how to correctly do that. An Upper-Middle spots them a mile away, to say nothing of Upper. To Proles, their preferences and behavior are grating or risible. They end up jockeying awkwardly for position only amongst themselves.
- gradschoolfail 2y ago
  Right, the trichotomy in Venkatesh Rao’s The Office… was clearly influenced by Fussell (who was in turn inspired by Veblen) GP indicates another trichotomy- past, future and present orientation.. >Now they hide, not merely from envy and revenge but from expose journalism much advanced in cunning and ferocity since Veblen's time, and from an even worse threat, virtually unknown to Veblen,foundational mendicancy, with its hordes of beggars in three-piece suits constantly badgering the well-to-do. Update for XXI to take into account (YC vs) “fakers” & the finally selfaware 4th estate
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    One good FNORD way to hide is to convince the low the mid are somehow* "elite" and therefore no one need look past them to the high. (the proles aren't any less status conscious than the outer party; what else could explain tracksuit chic and luxury brand revenue? "Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children.") Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPpjU1UeAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPpjU1UeAo (the video features a nice 20' day sailer, but is a little short on horses) EDIT: * διαίρει και βασίλευε, known in our times as "let's you and him fight". The brits played this game well during their imperial period, but looking at the world map of frozen (and hot) conflicts, maybe they played it too well.
    - gradschoolfail 2y ago
      Convince the present oriented that the future oriented are past oriented?
      - 082349872349872 2y ago
        to the middle class, higher education from a good institution provides skills that ought to prove useful in the future; to the working class, proof of higher education from a good institution is a gate which demonstrates how much free cash flow one's parents had in the past? (I might assign the labels differently though: working class is future oriented [live in expectation of what you have coming]; upper class is past oriented [live on what you already have]; middle class is present oriented [performative in the now]. The first two are economic; the last social. bien-pensant/What would Mrs. Grundy think?)

intelVISA 2y ago

Well it's not UK specicfic but as there's only really workers and owners, they could be insecure about being a slightly better paid worker?

lazide 2y ago
Also, an owner - of a very limited amount. Junior partner, at best.
immibis 2y ago
There are many taxonomies of people. Workers vs owners is one, and relates to the relationship between people and the means of production. Other taxonomies are young vs old, male vs female, and class structures with more than two classes. Notice that this thread has been about social class, more than economic class.
DiggyJohnson 2y ago
That's one way of looking at it. But there are other ways of slicing and dicing an populace and it's capital.

vundercind 2y ago

One point that Fussell’s Class: A Guide Through the American Status System makes over and over (maybe never quite explicitly, but implicitly, throughout) is that Fussell’s “middle class” is essentially defined by being thoroughly pathetic. They’re the most class-concerned, by far, desperately anxious to signal higher class, while having no clue how to correctly do that. An Upper-Middle spots them a mile away, to say nothing of Upper. To Proles, their preferences and behavior are grating or risible. They end up jockeying awkwardly for position only amongst themselves.

gradschoolfail 2y ago
Right, the trichotomy in Venkatesh Rao’s The Office… was clearly influenced by Fussell (who was in turn inspired by Veblen) GP indicates another trichotomy- past, future and present orientation.. >Now they hide, not merely from envy and revenge but from expose journalism much advanced in cunning and ferocity since Veblen's time, and from an even worse threat, virtually unknown to Veblen,foundational mendicancy, with its hordes of beggars in three-piece suits constantly badgering the well-to-do. Update for XXI to take into account (YC vs) “fakers” & the finally selfaware 4th estate
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  One good FNORD way to hide is to convince the low the mid are somehow* "elite" and therefore no one need look past them to the high. (the proles aren't any less status conscious than the outer party; what else could explain tracksuit chic and luxury brand revenue? "Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children.") Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPpjU1UeAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPpjU1UeAo (the video features a nice 20' day sailer, but is a little short on horses) EDIT: * διαίρει και βασίλευε, known in our times as "let's you and him fight". The brits played this game well during their imperial period, but looking at the world map of frozen (and hot) conflicts, maybe they played it too well.
  - gradschoolfail 2y ago
    Convince the present oriented that the future oriented are past oriented?
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      to the middle class, higher education from a good institution provides skills that ought to prove useful in the future; to the working class, proof of higher education from a good institution is a gate which demonstrates how much free cash flow one's parents had in the past? (I might assign the labels differently though: working class is future oriented [live in expectation of what you have coming]; upper class is past oriented [live on what you already have]; middle class is present oriented [performative in the now]. The first two are economic; the last social. bien-pensant/What would Mrs. Grundy think?)