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> But is it malicious? Almost certainly not. Honestly, it often will be malicious, or will quickly become malicious if you don't take it graciously. And why sh
by esperent 2y ago
> But is it malicious? Almost certainly not.
Honestly, it often will be malicious, or will quickly become malicious if you don't take it graciously. And why should you? It's not acceptable to make fun of people for being skinny, ginger, shy, black, white, female, or any other things that the in group considers non-standard for whatever weird reasons.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- yCombLinks 2y ago[flagged]
- wyager 2y agoIf you have this attitude, you aren't cut out to work in the trades
- mock-possum 2y agoThe trades need to change then. What you and others are so blithely defending in this thread is textbook toxic behavior.
- wyager 2y agoWhat exactly is your plan to achieve this "needed" change?
- lazyasciiart 2y agoOoh, that’s a great shutdown, do you use it when someone brings up male suicide rates too?
- itsoktocry 2y agoAcademia and the managerial class are going to lecture blue collar workers from the luxury of their remote offices, same as it ever was.
- mock-possum 2y agoOh I have no idea, I’m just basically against bigotry and bullying, and basically in favour of kindness and inclusivity. It’s up to every individual to find the value for themselves, and commit to working on themselves, whatever that looks like. How about you, what’s your plan?
- wyager 2y ago> How about you, what’s your plan? I can tell you that it doesn't involve condescendingly lecturing blue collar workers about my culture being superior to theirs
- jdietrich 2y agoWithout wanting to indulge too much in macho tropes: A welding shop is inherently dangerous. If you spend long enough in one, you are going to get seriously injured at some point. You are going to be the first responder when someone else gets seriously injured. Surviving in that environment requires a certain level of toughness. I'm not defending bullying, but some places aren't supposed to be welcoming.
- esperent 2y agoI just looked it up. Welding is definitely not a safe profession, but it seems like severe injury rates is around 3.5 per hundred workers throughout a whole career. Definitely not "most". And about the same or slightly less than carpentry (4 per hundred), which from personal experience is a profession filled with decent and friendly people.
- lazide 2y agoThere is no way that is correct. What data are you using? [https://www.bls.gov/iif/fatal-injuries-tables/fatal-occupational-injuries-table-a-5-2020.htm https://www.bls.gov/iif/fatal-injuries-tables/fatal-occupati...] BLS is combining solder/brazing with welding. And has no concept of industrial vs fab, etc.
- Rinzler89 2y ago>It's not acceptable to make fun of people for being skinny, ginger, shy, black, white, female, or any other things that the in group considers non-standard for whatever weird reasons. How about let people say and do whatever they want amongst themselves and stay out of their conversations. Dudes in dangerous professions bond by calling each other slurs which is ok because they're all in on it, such that if you can't handle some bad words how are you gonna handle the real dangers of the profession where people need to know you have their backs, so you're either not cut out for the job. You as an outsider from the nice people bubble don't have a say in this to lecture them since you're not in on it.
- fzeroracer 2y agoWhat does any of this have to do with what they said? There's a difference between an in-group privately calling each other whatever and said in-group directing it towards someone not part of said group.
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- Angostura 2y ago> How about let people say and do whatever they want amongst themselves and stay out of their conversations. Sounds like a great way of excluding people from the workforce.
- tuatoru 2y ago> if you don't take it graciously. That is the point of the banter: to see how you handle stressful situations. Women don't understand this, but nearly all men do. Why? For every accident, there are around twenty near misses. For every near miss there are several situations that could have gone bad very quickly unless the person on the spot remains calm and acts rationally. It is essential to know how you behave under stress in most blue collar work. They're not being assholes for fun; they're doing it to save lives.
- nitwit005 2y agoThe banter is not a cunning safety plan.
- notahacker 2y agoAnd even if it was and watching sport or going down the pub was in fact an extremely safety-conscious environment compared with the sterility and politeness of, say, the aerospace industry, it's not entirely clear how encouraging people to either escalate or laugh off would help them deal with actual danger which generally requires neither of the above...
- MisterTea 2y ago> sterility and politeness of, say, the aerospace industry, I work in that industry and can say with confidence that statement is false.
- notahacker 2y agoSterility and politeness is variable, but I also work in that industry and have yet to encounter a situation where the banter resembles that of a largely risk free but comparably male environment like, say a sports ground or pub lunch with friends I've known since we were kids. Which is a good thing really, because I wouldn't want to think that people were actually determining fitness to be trusted with a soldering iron or embedded systems design based on their witty comebacks or tolerance for jokes about their wife.
- dyauspitr 2y agoIt’s strange but it’s a fine line. Being made fun of your physical attributes is pretty par for the course in most male groups and it paradoxically makes the place more comfortable to be in. Women just don’t get how this works. Obviously I’m talking about most places. Sometimes it’s just truly evil bullying because they genuinely hate you.
- mplewis 2y ago[flagged]
- dyauspitr 2y agoThen I suppose I like the patriarchy.
- raxxorraxor 2y agoThat is not true. The goal of banter isn't to belittle others seriously, it is often just used to break the ice or for some fun in between work. It is not about a group bullying another. Many places that require nice language are far more toxic. Or perhaps any place with strict behavior and language rules is toxic, it often seems to be the case. The parent said that women don't get it. I disagree, most of them working in such environments get it just like men. There are some exceptions for either gender.
- scotty79 2y agoClose people can joke like that. Joking like that before you become close is rough attempt at manufacturing closeness fast. If it works it works, if it doesn't it gets nasty.
- Angostura 2y agoThe role of banter absolutely can be to belittle people -frequently it’s used as a tool for establishing a pecking order. There’s nothing better for team cohesion than agreeing on the person you are going to bully
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- kardianos 2y agoWhy? Men make fun of themselves and each other all the time. It's how we talk. It honestly isn't negative; it's almost a form of banter that tells the truth in a low-key softball way where we can all laugh. Why is banter not acceptable? Who went and took the fun out of life? I'm not talking here about purposefully mean banter or taking things too far. But come on, who made these "rules" you speak of?
- mercutio2 2y agoI am a man. I don’t know who this “we” is you speak of. Sure as hell isn’t me or my friends. Assholes exist everywhere, but “we” don’t have to apologize for them or make the workplace a safer space for them.
- bigstrat2003 2y agoI'm a man, and literally every male friend I've ever had engages in this kind of banter. If you and your friends don't, you are outliers.
- brendoelfrendo 2y agoI like how you've defined yourself as the norm and not the GP, even though you're both calling from your personal experience with a sample size of one.
- naming_the_user 2y agoIt's fascinating for me to watch these comment threads blow up, I hadn't thought this would take off so much. It's a constant stream of "but my guys don't do this" "but my guys do do this". It's all just rephrasing of, well, this is the highbrow culture, and this is the working class culture, and I'm in one or the other and you're abnormal. The reality is that it's just two different worlds and where they clash things get weird. Looking at _so many_ responses to my post, almost none of which actually have new content, makes me think this is some sort of dead internet bots vs. bots contest.
- cies 2y ago> It's not acceptable to make fun of people Is that not down to the culture? I found some of the warmest workplaces were also the places were everyone was constantly shitting on each other and not taking it too serious. I'd not say it was bullying, as everyone got a piece. There was a certain toughness to it, but at the same time everyone was caring deeply for one another.
- RHSeeger 2y agoIf the target of your joke isn't laughing (if they're upset by it), then it's not a joke, it's bullying. If they _are_ laughing/enjoying it, then it's playful banter. You're right, it very much varies by culture (culture here being as specific as "the specific group of people")
- cies 2y agoIn a culture where banter is accepted, sometimes someone will be upset by something. I think the current tendency to prevent all possibility to upsetting behaviour is overshooting the mark. Against bullying is a good movement. Against all possibly upsetting remarks is basically being against banter and killing a part of what makes us human. I hope that free speech remains allowed and to some extend "uncancelable".
- boogieknite 2y agoSpent a lot of time in hunting and fishing parties with near constant teasing and in those situations its usually the rudest and most egotistical jerk who doesnt laugh and enjoy. They cross the line repeatedly, everyone takes it in good nature while internally counting the incidents, then eventually someone takes them down a peg and they act like a child.
- cies 2y agoSo you're saying constant teasing is a fun way to weed out the jerks. Sounds about what I experience it to be. Never thought of it like that though: thanks! Would you say this is more typical in groups of men, or among the men within a group? (I'm thinking about social situations myself now as well)
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago> It's not acceptable to make fun of people for being skinny, ginger, shy, black, white, female, or any other things that the in group considers non-standard for whatever weird reasons This probably seems obviously true to you but it should not. Some people think there's a reasonable amount of banter, sometimes at the expense of another acquaintance, before it becomes bullying or unacceptable in the workplace.
- foldr 2y agoIsn't that essentially just saying that some bullies think that it's ok to bully people? I mean, yes, we know. That doesn't mean we're not allowed to have a strong opinion about it.
- wruza 2y agoIt’s not just fun, but the least offensive way of establishing hierarchy, which is required to form a group, in men. They ask you who you are. A reference to some rule (e.g. what’s acceptable) is by definition a confrontation. A refusal to position yourself in a group, which is tested/offered by poking a person, makes you a questionable element in it. Yes, all this is mostly pointless in a modern life. But that’s how an average hunting-age male works. The attributes and reasons do not matter in isolation. They will find where to poke even if you’re a twin of one of the group members. Red hair is just the obvious one to use. The alternative is going to the office, filtering thoughts in your mouth and reporting slight misspeaks and inappropriately timed eye contacts to a special manager who then decides who’s higher in hierarchy according to some rules.