6 ms·

I don't want to discourage intelligent discussion, but your penned thoughts are about 3x the wordcount of the original article. Or - tl;dr

by omonra 14y ago

GuiA 14y ago
The original wordcount to response word count ratio is not really relevant IMO— for example, people have written thousands of pages dissecting the Tao which is a mere couple dozen pages long. However, better layout (ie. more paragraphs) would help.
- mmorett 14y ago
  "However, better layout (ie. more paragraphs) would help." Yes. I saw that huge block of text after just reading the GigaOM article and just skipped right over it. I came here to see what people thought on the matter, but I wasn't about to invest it all on one post. Still, downvoting the other guy that mentioned the length of the piece is pretty crappy. "It adds no value to the conversation". Hell it doesn't. His thought was exactly my thought and the cause of my reaction (to skip the War and Peace-length comment). For a "comment that didn't add value" he sure got a lot of comments.
robomartin 14y ago
I down-voted your comment. I don't believe in down-voting without giving a reason for having done so. Here's mine: Your post adds no value whatsoever. Think twice before hitting "reply" if all you are going to do is post a negative comment that is utterly irrelevant.
- omonra 14y ago
  Same idea can be expressed succinctly or with a lot of verbiage. Some prefer the former. The point of my post was asking the parent to consider this point.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - robomartin 14y ago
    That could have value. Did you take the time to study the matter and post a succinct explanation? I'd love to get a link to your post.
- wpietri 14y ago
  You'll note that your comment has no value except as author feedback. Isn't that exactly the value of the comment you downvoted?
  - bmelton 14y ago
    I always prefer to leave a comment when I am downvoting, and I think that, at least in my head, it's beneficial in encouraging the type of behavior I would like to see more of on HN. Simply put, I would MUCH prefer to see a long, well-thought comment by someone who has obviously put effort into their post than someone deriding them for having been so wordy. Regrettably, I downvote so much more often than I used to (because there is, whether it's acknowledged or not, a battle between the 'old guard' and the new) that I am not able to leave commentary where I once would have, nor would my ire be appropriate by my own standard, so I often drive-by-downvote, all the while envisioning the day where HN will either be saved from those who prefer to make short, catchy quips than well thought diatribes, or I will leave. I don't mean to make this all dramatic, as I will likely leave unnoticed when that day comes, but I wanted to give some sort of additional commentary before saying that I also downvoted each of Omron's posts, and I don't feel that sort of post is at all appropriate here. Grellas' commentary is often invaluable on legal matters such as this, and I am visibly disappointed when I see legal threads where I could use some insight, and can't find a topical post by him on the matter as his posts are almost always the most enlightening for laypersons such as myself that are nevertheless interested. Lastly, while I generally abhor the notion of judging people by account ages or karma values, I think Grellas deserves far better than to be asked to shorten his posts by someone with 82 karma, though I would be just as vocal if Oman had 20,000 karma.
  - robomartin 14y ago
    Posting an explanation for a down-vote is very rare. It should be a requirement for the privilege of down-voting on HN. It is also, in my opinion, good manners.
    - nkurz 14y ago
      I disagree. Personally, I try not to down-vote anything that I also respond to. I reserve down votes for comments that I don't think contribute to the conversation, and I don't want to give them more attention than they already have. I'd be fine with requiring an explanation that was visible only to the down-voted poster. I actually wish that more people would down-vote more freely, in the hope that low-quality comments would be more discouraged than they currently are.
Natsu 14y ago
The TL;DR is that the patent system is horribly broken and this is a shell company from East Texas trying to take the VC money of a hot new startup (among others). The more interesting question is whether or not they'll get stuck in EDT or not. People have found several tricks to escape that particular jurisdiction only to have the trolls invent new counters. It sounds like they've filed a Declaratory Judgement action here, but it's hard to tell. But DJAs can be quite complicated[1]. So you can practically have your case dismissed as not yet "ripe" only to have them turn around and sue you in a jurisdiction where they can get money out of you fast (usually East Texas). What I'd like to know from grellas is whether this particular DJA appears likely to succeed? Because I wouldn't be surprised any more to see it fail due to some oddball procedural trick, only to have them file suit in their home court the very next day. I even remember one time where a patent troll even abused a quirky local court rule in East Texas to file a day early and gain priority. In fact, I think that was complications arising out of that case that led to the shuttering of the excellent Patent Troll Tracker blog. [1] See, e.g. http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2012/03/3m-v-avery-walking-the-line-of-declaratory-judgment-jurisdiction.html http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2012/03/3m-v-avery-walking-t...
ktizo 14y ago
They were all worth reading though. The average attention span of the internet is not the best guide for an informative writing style. I like the fact that you will get long thought-out posts on here as it means people are actually expressing themselves with some level of depth rather than worrying about the needs of the easily bored.
reitzensteinm 14y ago
Black and white ideas can be expressed succinctly. Shades of gray require detail. Short and sharp writing is like candy for the brain. It feels rewarding to consume, but ultimately has little educational merit. Taking a chainsaw to grellas' posts would remove the detail that makes them fantastic and educational reads. I've written short posts about patents before. One of them got 72 upvotes this week. Nobody learned a damn thing from it. Hacker News needs more of grellas, and less of me. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Although this is true, I think the post from grellas could be trimmed substantially without losing nuance. And what remains could be formatted much more readably. Writing for the web is different than writing for print. If grellas wants to maximize the spread of his ideas, he would benefit from learning a new approach.
  - Jgrubb 14y ago
    On the other hand, his approach was perfect for me. A matter of opinion maybe?
    - wpietri 14y ago
      Sure, but in writing for a broad audience, you aim to cover the bulk of the readers despite differing tastes. If you look at the examples from Jakob Nielsen's work on writing for the web, you can see that people who are fine with the giant-wall-o'-text approach are also fine with something that shows more structure.
mattdeboard 14y ago
This is probably the most blatant anti-intellectualism I've seen on Hacker News. I generally skim walls of text as well but the post was well-written and -reasoned.

I don't want to discourage intelligent discussion, but your penned thoughts are about 3x the wordcount of the original article. Or - tl;dr

by omonra 14y ago

I don't want to discourage intelligent discussion, but your penned thoughts are about 3x the wordcount of the original article. Or - tl;dr

GuiA 14y ago

The original wordcount to response word count ratio is not really relevant IMO— for example, people have written thousands of pages dissecting the Tao which is a mere couple dozen pages long. However, better layout (ie. more paragraphs) would help.

mmorett 14y ago
"However, better layout (ie. more paragraphs) would help." Yes. I saw that huge block of text after just reading the GigaOM article and just skipped right over it. I came here to see what people thought on the matter, but I wasn't about to invest it all on one post. Still, downvoting the other guy that mentioned the length of the piece is pretty crappy. "It adds no value to the conversation". Hell it doesn't. His thought was exactly my thought and the cause of my reaction (to skip the War and Peace-length comment). For a "comment that didn't add value" he sure got a lot of comments.

robomartin 14y ago

I down-voted your comment. I don't believe in down-voting without giving a reason for having done so. Here's mine: Your post adds no value whatsoever. Think twice before hitting "reply" if all you are going to do is post a negative comment that is utterly irrelevant.

omonra 14y ago
Same idea can be expressed succinctly or with a lot of verbiage. Some prefer the former. The point of my post was asking the parent to consider this point.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- robomartin 14y ago
  That could have value. Did you take the time to study the matter and post a succinct explanation? I'd love to get a link to your post.
wpietri 14y ago
You'll note that your comment has no value except as author feedback. Isn't that exactly the value of the comment you downvoted?
- bmelton 14y ago
  I always prefer to leave a comment when I am downvoting, and I think that, at least in my head, it's beneficial in encouraging the type of behavior I would like to see more of on HN. Simply put, I would MUCH prefer to see a long, well-thought comment by someone who has obviously put effort into their post than someone deriding them for having been so wordy. Regrettably, I downvote so much more often than I used to (because there is, whether it's acknowledged or not, a battle between the 'old guard' and the new) that I am not able to leave commentary where I once would have, nor would my ire be appropriate by my own standard, so I often drive-by-downvote, all the while envisioning the day where HN will either be saved from those who prefer to make short, catchy quips than well thought diatribes, or I will leave. I don't mean to make this all dramatic, as I will likely leave unnoticed when that day comes, but I wanted to give some sort of additional commentary before saying that I also downvoted each of Omron's posts, and I don't feel that sort of post is at all appropriate here. Grellas' commentary is often invaluable on legal matters such as this, and I am visibly disappointed when I see legal threads where I could use some insight, and can't find a topical post by him on the matter as his posts are almost always the most enlightening for laypersons such as myself that are nevertheless interested. Lastly, while I generally abhor the notion of judging people by account ages or karma values, I think Grellas deserves far better than to be asked to shorten his posts by someone with 82 karma, though I would be just as vocal if Oman had 20,000 karma.
- robomartin 14y ago
  Posting an explanation for a down-vote is very rare. It should be a requirement for the privilege of down-voting on HN. It is also, in my opinion, good manners.
  - nkurz 14y ago
    I disagree. Personally, I try not to down-vote anything that I also respond to. I reserve down votes for comments that I don't think contribute to the conversation, and I don't want to give them more attention than they already have. I'd be fine with requiring an explanation that was visible only to the down-voted poster. I actually wish that more people would down-vote more freely, in the hope that low-quality comments would be more discouraged than they currently are.

Natsu 14y ago

The TL;DR is that the patent system is horribly broken and this is a shell company from East Texas trying to take the VC money of a hot new startup (among others). The more interesting question is whether or not they'll get stuck in EDT or not. People have found several tricks to escape that particular jurisdiction only to have the trolls invent new counters. It sounds like they've filed a Declaratory Judgement action here, but it's hard to tell. But DJAs can be quite complicated[1]. So you can practically have your case dismissed as not yet "ripe" only to have them turn around and sue you in a jurisdiction where they can get money out of you fast (usually East Texas). What I'd like to know from grellas is whether this particular DJA appears likely to succeed? Because I wouldn't be surprised any more to see it fail due to some oddball procedural trick, only to have them file suit in their home court the very next day. I even remember one time where a patent troll even abused a quirky local court rule in East Texas to file a day early and gain priority. In fact, I think that was complications arising out of that case that led to the shuttering of the excellent Patent Troll Tracker blog. [1] See, e.g. http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2012/03/3m-v-avery-walking-the-line-of-declaratory-judgment-jurisdiction.html http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2012/03/3m-v-avery-walking-t...

ktizo 14y ago

They were all worth reading though. The average attention span of the internet is not the best guide for an informative writing style. I like the fact that you will get long thought-out posts on here as it means people are actually expressing themselves with some level of depth rather than worrying about the needs of the easily bored.

reitzensteinm 14y ago

Black and white ideas can be expressed succinctly. Shades of gray require detail. Short and sharp writing is like candy for the brain. It feels rewarding to consume, but ultimately has little educational merit. Taking a chainsaw to grellas' posts would remove the detail that makes them fantastic and educational reads. I've written short posts about patents before. One of them got 72 upvotes this week. Nobody learned a damn thing from it. Hacker News needs more of grellas, and less of me. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

wpietri 14y ago
Although this is true, I think the post from grellas could be trimmed substantially without losing nuance. And what remains could be formatted much more readably. Writing for the web is different than writing for print. If grellas wants to maximize the spread of his ideas, he would benefit from learning a new approach.
- Jgrubb 14y ago
  On the other hand, his approach was perfect for me. A matter of opinion maybe?
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Sure, but in writing for a broad audience, you aim to cover the bulk of the readers despite differing tastes. If you look at the examples from Jakob Nielsen's work on writing for the web, you can see that people who are fine with the giant-wall-o'-text approach are also fine with something that shows more structure.

mattdeboard 14y ago

This is probably the most blatant anti-intellectualism I've seen on Hacker News. I generally skim walls of text as well but the post was well-written and -reasoned.