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> My perspective is that your typical business does not incentivize, or care to allow their engineers to do "proper" software engineering Which fields do you t

> My perspective is that your typical business does not incentivize, or care to allow their engineers to do "proper" software engineering Which fields do you think are allowed to do "proper" ________ in a typical business? If you give me the choice between working with 2 groups of people where one says, "Let's get this done the right way!" and one that says, "Let's get this done!", I'll join the second one every time.

whstl 2y ago
Other engineering disciplines, for one. And I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm just saying it's done properly.
- paulcole 2y ago
  I think I’ll agree that some licensed fields (medicine, engineering) are more likely than not going to be allowed to do things the “Right Way.” But at the same time I’d bet if you asked people in those professions they’d likely say, “Our bosses don’t let us do things the proper way.” It’s more likely everybody thinks they know better than their boss regardless of the field.
  - whstl 2y ago
    I worked as an electrical engineer in the past, and there was definitely a lot of corner cutting, less-than-ideal parts, less-than-ideal suppliers, low-quality materials, and simple day-to-day things at work that just make the life of engineers bad. But that doesn't mean you throw the baby with the bathwater. I was still liable for things like fire hazard or RF interference, among other things.
- KptMarchewa 2y ago
  Boeing practices would disagree with you.
  - whstl 2y ago
    Boeing was charged with fraud, to the tune of $2.5 billion. Crime and outliers are not a counter-example.
proc0 2y ago
It's not so much that there are wrong engineering techniques as much as engineers being heavily constrained and not allowed to exercise their full expertise. An example of where this is not so much the case would be areas like civil engineering because it has serious consequences if the engineering isn't done right, i.e. a bridge falling. With software there is a lot more room for interpretation as to what engineering really is or should accomplish.
- paulcole 2y ago
  > It's not so much that there are wrong engineering techniques as much as engineers being heavily constrained and not allowed to exercise their full expertise. What other fields do you believe are not heavily constrained and are allowed to exercise their full expertise at a typical business? My point is that nearly everybody feels constrained at work because of decisions from higher-ups or whatever. It’s not like software developers are some unique set of people who face challenges nobody else faces.

whstl 2y ago

Other engineering disciplines, for one. And I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm just saying it's done properly.

paulcole 2y ago
I think I’ll agree that some licensed fields (medicine, engineering) are more likely than not going to be allowed to do things the “Right Way.” But at the same time I’d bet if you asked people in those professions they’d likely say, “Our bosses don’t let us do things the proper way.” It’s more likely everybody thinks they know better than their boss regardless of the field.
- whstl 2y ago
  I worked as an electrical engineer in the past, and there was definitely a lot of corner cutting, less-than-ideal parts, less-than-ideal suppliers, low-quality materials, and simple day-to-day things at work that just make the life of engineers bad. But that doesn't mean you throw the baby with the bathwater. I was still liable for things like fire hazard or RF interference, among other things.
KptMarchewa 2y ago
Boeing practices would disagree with you.
- whstl 2y ago
  Boeing was charged with fraud, to the tune of $2.5 billion. Crime and outliers are not a counter-example.

proc0 2y ago

It's not so much that there are wrong engineering techniques as much as engineers being heavily constrained and not allowed to exercise their full expertise. An example of where this is not so much the case would be areas like civil engineering because it has serious consequences if the engineering isn't done right, i.e. a bridge falling. With software there is a lot more room for interpretation as to what engineering really is or should accomplish.

paulcole 2y ago
> It's not so much that there are wrong engineering techniques as much as engineers being heavily constrained and not allowed to exercise their full expertise. What other fields do you believe are not heavily constrained and are allowed to exercise their full expertise at a typical business? My point is that nearly everybody feels constrained at work because of decisions from higher-ups or whatever. It’s not like software developers are some unique set of people who face challenges nobody else faces.