3 ms·

I don't buy this "blaming the mainstream media" for the upteenth time. First of all, looking at your other examples of Myanmar and Sudan, there have been tons o

I don't buy this "blaming the mainstream media" for the upteenth time. First of all, looking at your other examples of Myanmar and Sudan, there have been tons of coverage in the mainstream media about those issues. What the OP is saying about 21000 laborers dying in Saudi Arabian is that huge number would have been noticed by lots of people - and a lot of these people would have had huge incentive to get the word out, and then the "mainstream media" would have had huge incentive to get the word out as well. E.g. wouldn't this have been gigantic news in places like the Philippines and India where many of these laborers come from? As OP points out, I think the bigger problem is separating out on-the-job deaths from "natural" deaths. I.e. how many deaths would you normally expect from 10M people over 7 years? My guess is that it's some combination of (a) truly awful slave-like conditions, (b) just general "lack of safety culture" conditions (e.g. ~100 people died building the Hoover Dam - I don't think people considered them slaves but they definitely weren't following OSHA rules), (c) accidental deaths that happen in any large project over this amount of time, and (d) natural deaths. The journalistic challenge is that it's difficult to tease out these different causes.

lostlogin 2y ago
It seems relevant that Myanmar and Sudan are easy to blame, as most places don’t depend on them for anything and they are poor countries. That isn’t true of Saudi.
moralestapia 2y ago
>that huge number would have been noticed by lots of people - and a lot of these people would have had huge incentive to get the word out You obviously have never done things from a non-privileged situation. It is extremely difficult to disseminate ideas that lie outside the overton window. Exhibit A: you. You just "don't believe it" and that's usually the end of the conversation. These people have everything against them. It is of no surprise, to me, that their anguish and problems go completely unnoticed by Western society.
mtalantikite 2y ago
> What the OP is saying about 21000 laborers dying in Saudi Arabian is that huge number would have been noticed by lots of people - and a lot of these people would have had huge incentive to get the word out, and then the "mainstream media" would have had huge incentive to get the word out as well. Well, it's more complicated than that. Take Bangladesh. Most of the people dying are extremely poor young men from the gram (village), whose families are not going to have the power to get their stories in the newspapers, which are owned by ruling class families. Some of these papers even have sibling businesses in their parent conglomerates that actively recruit workers to go to SA, UAE, etc. [0] Also, the political system is desperate for Saudi investment [1][2], so they aren't necessarily going to make a huge public fuss about it. It's certainly in the news though [3][4]. That's all to say that families absolutely know about this, talk about it on social media groups, and nothing happens. [0] https://bashundhara-bd.com/ https://bashundhara-bd.com/, which is owned by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashundhara_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashundhara_Group, which owns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Pratidin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Pratidin . [1] https://en.bd-pratidin.com/national/2024/10/28/21535 https://en.bd-pratidin.com/national/2024/10/28/21535 [2] https://en.bd-pratidin.com/national/2024/10/27/21480 https://en.bd-pratidin.com/national/2024/10/27/21480 [3] https://en.prothomalo.com/bangladesh/87ot8fmapn https://en.prothomalo.com/bangladesh/87ot8fmapn [4] https://en.prothomalo.com/bangladesh/vomgbw8zwa https://en.prothomalo.com/bangladesh/vomgbw8zwa
changing1999 2y ago
Looking purely at data (eg https://data.who.int/countries/682 https://data.who.int/countries/682) your point is not unreasonable. Saudi Arabia population is ~35M with ~120K deaths per year. 10M immigrants is ~32K deaths per year.
wormlord 2y ago
Not trying to be an asshole, I think you should genuinely ask yourself why your first reaction is to try and justify/intellectualize the deaths of literal slaves from the third world who are enslaved by an actual monarch.
- changing1999 2y ago
  Because jumping to emotionally driven conclusions is not a healthy reaction and usually leads to bad outcomes.
  - wormlord 2y ago
    How do you know my analysis is emotionally-driven? One might argue that your analysis is driven by the need to justify the atrocities you witness-- an emotional reaction. > usually leads to bad outcomes Citation needed.
    - changing1999 2y ago
      It's a fact that strong emotions can cloud judgment and result in cognitive biases. See my comment above in the same thread, the data suggests that OP's view is not unreasonable. Your comment uses charged language like "asshole", "literal slaves", "justify/intellectualize the deaths", etc and you are not providing data to support your claims (only an appeal to emotions).
      - wormlord 2y ago
        > the data suggests that OP's view is not unreasonable The data uses a relative comparison of migrant deaths to overall death rate for Saudi Arabia. You are looking for something to console you that "actually the slaves aren't dying at high rates". I'd like to see this death rate for the subset of the SA population that matches migrant demographics, ex: age and gender. Then we can see what the comparable death rates are for healthy young men. > Your comment uses charged language like "asshole" I said I wasnt an asshole to preface that I genuinely meant what I said. > "literal slaves" They are literally slaves this is factual. > "justify/intellectualize the deaths" Again, factual. You yourself claim that you are trying to be unemotional and analyze the situation as I described, "academically".

lostlogin 2y ago

It seems relevant that Myanmar and Sudan are easy to blame, as most places don’t depend on them for anything and they are poor countries. That isn’t true of Saudi.

moralestapia 2y ago

>that huge number would have been noticed by lots of people - and a lot of these people would have had huge incentive to get the word out You obviously have never done things from a non-privileged situation. It is extremely difficult to disseminate ideas that lie outside the overton window. Exhibit A: you. You just "don't believe it" and that's usually the end of the conversation. These people have everything against them. It is of no surprise, to me, that their anguish and problems go completely unnoticed by Western society.

mtalantikite 2y ago

> What the OP is saying about 21000 laborers dying in Saudi Arabian is that huge number would have been noticed by lots of people - and a lot of these people would have had huge incentive to get the word out, and then the "mainstream media" would have had huge incentive to get the word out as well. Well, it's more complicated than that. Take Bangladesh. Most of the people dying are extremely poor young men from the gram (village), whose families are not going to have the power to get their stories in the newspapers, which are owned by ruling class families. Some of these papers even have sibling businesses in their parent conglomerates that actively recruit workers to go to SA, UAE, etc. [0] Also, the political system is desperate for Saudi investment [1][2], so they aren't necessarily going to make a huge public fuss about it. It's certainly in the news though [3][4]. That's all to say that families absolutely know about this, talk about it on social media groups, and nothing happens. [0] https://bashundhara-bd.com/ https://bashundhara-bd.com/, which is owned by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashundhara_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashundhara_Group, which owns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Pratidin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Pratidin . [1] https://en.bd-pratidin.com/national/2024/10/28/21535 https://en.bd-pratidin.com/national/2024/10/28/21535 [2] https://en.bd-pratidin.com/national/2024/10/27/21480 https://en.bd-pratidin.com/national/2024/10/27/21480 [3] https://en.prothomalo.com/bangladesh/87ot8fmapn https://en.prothomalo.com/bangladesh/87ot8fmapn [4] https://en.prothomalo.com/bangladesh/vomgbw8zwa https://en.prothomalo.com/bangladesh/vomgbw8zwa

changing1999 2y ago

Looking purely at data (eg https://data.who.int/countries/682 https://data.who.int/countries/682) your point is not unreasonable. Saudi Arabia population is ~35M with ~120K deaths per year. 10M immigrants is ~32K deaths per year.

wormlord 2y ago

Not trying to be an asshole, I think you should genuinely ask yourself why your first reaction is to try and justify/intellectualize the deaths of literal slaves from the third world who are enslaved by an actual monarch.

changing1999 2y ago
Because jumping to emotionally driven conclusions is not a healthy reaction and usually leads to bad outcomes.
- wormlord 2y ago
  How do you know my analysis is emotionally-driven? One might argue that your analysis is driven by the need to justify the atrocities you witness-- an emotional reaction. > usually leads to bad outcomes Citation needed.
  - changing1999 2y ago
    It's a fact that strong emotions can cloud judgment and result in cognitive biases. See my comment above in the same thread, the data suggests that OP's view is not unreasonable. Your comment uses charged language like "asshole", "literal slaves", "justify/intellectualize the deaths", etc and you are not providing data to support your claims (only an appeal to emotions).
    - wormlord 2y ago
      > the data suggests that OP's view is not unreasonable The data uses a relative comparison of migrant deaths to overall death rate for Saudi Arabia. You are looking for something to console you that "actually the slaves aren't dying at high rates". I'd like to see this death rate for the subset of the SA population that matches migrant demographics, ex: age and gender. Then we can see what the comparable death rates are for healthy young men. > Your comment uses charged language like "asshole" I said I wasnt an asshole to preface that I genuinely meant what I said. > "literal slaves" They are literally slaves this is factual. > "justify/intellectualize the deaths" Again, factual. You yourself claim that you are trying to be unemotional and analyze the situation as I described, "academically".