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I don’t think this is a technology problem…

by klysm 2y ago

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Agreed! That is my point. The tech already exists, it is paperwork/policy to fix. Someone must have the will to move the needle for the change to occur. If countries sending folks to these places are complacent, certainly, the problem scope and level of effort required expands rapidly.
- neontomo 2y ago
  while your idea has value, I think the point being made is that this is an issue with views on human rights and liberty, not technology.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    In engaging with enterprise and government stakeholders, I have found that if the technology foundation does not exist, it will be used as an excuse to not execute or improve. So, when an issue is raised, if you have come prepared to show that you can solve the problem with existing primitives or systems in a straightforward manner, it becomes much more challenging to assert the problem cannot be solved. "We can solve this today; if you're asserting we can't, be prepared to prove it before the audience expands to encourage accountability." Whether that audience is higher up the leadership ladder, adversarial peer stakeholders more motivated to succeed, the general public, regulators/legislators, or journalists is situation specific.
    - bradjohnson 2y ago
      The politics of the situation might make a perceived lack of technological solution a convenient scapegoat, that is true. However, from the HN comments section, suggesting a technological solution to a human rights abuse problem doesn't move the needle, because it is not a lack of technology that has caused the human rights abuse. You are responding to a non-issue that hasn't been presented to you and that you have no authority to solve.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      Wrong. It's the opposite. When there's a will, there's a way. Unfortunately, in this situation, there's no will.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
rdsubhas 2y ago
This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport. Yes, there are other factors such as bonded labor, indemnities and local laws taking precedence. But this is such an obvious abuse factor, it makes sense to remove it. Of all the ways to do it, whether it's paid lockers and so on – what the parent comment said is still a cheap way.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport. Sure, but the local government wants it that way. They won't be the ones to change it!
  - falcor84 2y ago
    But we're talking about the password issuer (e.g. India), right? They have an interest in protecting their citizens and limiting the power of other local governments to abuse them
    - blackoil 2y ago
      To exit a country, you need to pass their immigration which may require same physical passport on which person has entered. Also, India/Pakistan wouldn't want to antagonize the Saudis as billions in forex flow via these workers. So, it is the cost of being poor.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      No. Saudi Arabia's requirement of a passport to exit the country is what permits this abuse. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/SaudiArabia.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra... > A valid passport is required for U.S. citizens to enter or exit the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
some_random 2y ago
It's not a technology problem, but since technology pervades every element of modern society it's an aspect. Passport theft is a significant part of how modern slavery functions internationally, and a technological solution isn't weird to discuss on a technology forum.

I don’t think this is a technology problem…

by klysm 2y ago

I don’t think this is a technology problem…

Agreed! That is my point. The tech already exists, it is paperwork/policy to fix. Someone must have the will to move the needle for the change to occur. If countries sending folks to these places are complacent, certainly, the problem scope and level of effort required expands rapidly.

neontomo 2y ago
while your idea has value, I think the point being made is that this is an issue with views on human rights and liberty, not technology.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  In engaging with enterprise and government stakeholders, I have found that if the technology foundation does not exist, it will be used as an excuse to not execute or improve. So, when an issue is raised, if you have come prepared to show that you can solve the problem with existing primitives or systems in a straightforward manner, it becomes much more challenging to assert the problem cannot be solved. "We can solve this today; if you're asserting we can't, be prepared to prove it before the audience expands to encourage accountability." Whether that audience is higher up the leadership ladder, adversarial peer stakeholders more motivated to succeed, the general public, regulators/legislators, or journalists is situation specific.
  - bradjohnson 2y ago
    The politics of the situation might make a perceived lack of technological solution a convenient scapegoat, that is true. However, from the HN comments section, suggesting a technological solution to a human rights abuse problem doesn't move the needle, because it is not a lack of technology that has caused the human rights abuse. You are responding to a non-issue that hasn't been presented to you and that you have no authority to solve.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    Wrong. It's the opposite. When there's a will, there's a way. Unfortunately, in this situation, there's no will.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

rdsubhas 2y ago

This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport. Yes, there are other factors such as bonded labor, indemnities and local laws taking precedence. But this is such an obvious abuse factor, it makes sense to remove it. Of all the ways to do it, whether it's paid lockers and so on – what the parent comment said is still a cheap way.

ceejayoz 2y ago
> This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport. Sure, but the local government wants it that way. They won't be the ones to change it!
- falcor84 2y ago
  But we're talking about the password issuer (e.g. India), right? They have an interest in protecting their citizens and limiting the power of other local governments to abuse them
  - blackoil 2y ago
    To exit a country, you need to pass their immigration which may require same physical passport on which person has entered. Also, India/Pakistan wouldn't want to antagonize the Saudis as billions in forex flow via these workers. So, it is the cost of being poor.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    No. Saudi Arabia's requirement of a passport to exit the country is what permits this abuse. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/SaudiArabia.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra... > A valid passport is required for U.S. citizens to enter or exit the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

some_random 2y ago

It's not a technology problem, but since technology pervades every element of modern society it's an aspect. Passport theft is a significant part of how modern slavery functions internationally, and a technological solution isn't weird to discuss on a technology forum.