4 ms·

Let’s not pretend they aren’t effectively slaves even if the are remunerated to some degree, the liberty of a lot of these people in a country like Saudi is alm

Let’s not pretend they aren’t effectively slaves even if the are remunerated to some degree, the liberty of a lot of these people in a country like Saudi is almost zero. If I were India (for example) I’d be wanting to make sure people working abroad still were able to leave and hadn’t had passports confiscated and agreed pay disappear at the very least.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
It feels like the solution is, to my privacy ideal dismay, biometrics so that you don't need the passport. You show up at a checkpoint, you're identity proofed on the spot, you get to leave, even if you need to be escorted to the plane by your country's in country diplomatic team. I can already show up at a US embassy or consulate anywhere in the world and provide them my passport serial number to have a new one cut in an hour if I've lost mine, the gap to close is not big policy wise. Otherwise, we're relying on "magic government credential" which can be held hostage to hold a human hostage. Silliness. (India maintains the largest biometrics ID system in the world, Aadhaar, containing the records of 1.3B people: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2022/0425/On-biometric-IDs-India-is-a-laboratory-for-the-rest-of-the-world https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2022/0425...)
- klysm 2y ago
  I don’t think this is a technology problem…
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Agreed! That is my point. The tech already exists, it is paperwork/policy to fix. Someone must have the will to move the needle for the change to occur. If countries sending folks to these places are complacent, certainly, the problem scope and level of effort required expands rapidly.
    - neontomo 2y ago
      while your idea has value, I think the point being made is that this is an issue with views on human rights and liberty, not technology.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        In engaging with enterprise and government stakeholders, I have found that if the technology foundation does not exist, it will be used as an excuse to not execute or improve. So, when an issue is raised, if you have come prepared to show that you can solve the problem with existing primitives or systems in a straightforward manner, it becomes much more challenging to assert the problem cannot be solved. "We can solve this today; if you're asserting we can't, be prepared to prove it before the audience expands to encourage accountability." Whether that audience is higher up the leadership ladder, adversarial peer stakeholders more motivated to succeed, the general public, regulators/legislators, or journalists is situation specific.
        bradjohnson 2y ago
        The politics of the situation might make a perceived lack of technological solution a convenient scapegoat, that is true. However, from the HN comments section, suggesting a technological solution to a human rights abuse problem doesn't move the needle, because it is not a lack of technology that has caused the human rights abuse. You are responding to a non-issue that hasn't been presented to you and that you have no authority to solve.
        moralestapia 2y ago
        Wrong. It's the opposite. When there's a will, there's a way. Unfortunately, in this situation, there's no will.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - rdsubhas 2y ago
    This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport. Yes, there are other factors such as bonded labor, indemnities and local laws taking precedence. But this is such an obvious abuse factor, it makes sense to remove it. Of all the ways to do it, whether it's paid lockers and so on – what the parent comment said is still a cheap way.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport. Sure, but the local government wants it that way. They won't be the ones to change it!
      - falcor84 2y ago
        But we're talking about the password issuer (e.g. India), right? They have an interest in protecting their citizens and limiting the power of other local governments to abuse them
        blackoil 2y ago
        To exit a country, you need to pass their immigration which may require same physical passport on which person has entered. Also, India/Pakistan wouldn't want to antagonize the Saudis as billions in forex flow via these workers. So, it is the cost of being poor.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        No. Saudi Arabia's requirement of a passport to exit the country is what permits this abuse. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/SaudiArabia.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra... > A valid passport is required for U.S. citizens to enter or exit the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
  - some_random 2y ago
    It's not a technology problem, but since technology pervades every element of modern society it's an aspect. Passport theft is a significant part of how modern slavery functions internationally, and a technological solution isn't weird to discuss on a technology forum.
- glitchc 2y ago
  That's not a solution. Those people arrive to the Middle East of their own free will. Everyone in India knows about the abuse, including the labourers and their families. It's just that there are no jobs where they come from, and for all its abuse, the gulf countries pay well. It's desperation to make money that drives them there.
- _false 2y ago
  > I can already show up at a US embassy or consulate anywhere in the world and provide them my passport serial number to have a new one cut in an hour if I've lost mine Do you have any sources to confirm this?
  - selectodude 2y ago
    ??? https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/emergencies/lost-stolen-passport-abroad.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    selectodude's link is canonical imho, but you can also call the Dept. of State Office of Overseas Citizens Services to confirm.
ukoki 2y ago
Simpler to make it the law that foreign workers need to have their passport with them at all times.
- andy_ppp 2y ago
  Simpler for who?
- lostlogin 2y ago
  Do you really think that a problem of this scale could exist without it being sanctioned by the government? Saudi wants it this way.
- kragen 2y ago
  That way, stealing someone's passport not only keeps them from leaving the country, it also makes them subject to arrest without suspicion of any crime? I suppose that could be useful if you're an employer who wants to keep them from leaving your barracks to go shopping for food somewhere that might offer them a better price. But probably the person you were replying to intended to be searching for ways to defend the workers' human rights, not oppress them more efficiently.
  - ukoki 2y ago
    Yes but then the worker says to the police "my employer has stolen my passport" and the employer gets in trouble.
Tade0 2y ago
It's going to be harder than expected, as it's sort of a tradition in the region, unless you hail from a particularly powerful country like the US. My father worked in Kuwait as an engineer and his passport was locked in a file cabinet at the office, which was unfortunate because he had to fetch it while avoiding gunfire when Saddam Hussein's forces attacked in 1990. It was worth it though, as the document saved his life when Iraqis mistook him for an American and wanted to execute him on that basis.
maxglute 2y ago
If you're India, and you had surplus of young men who would other wise be unemployed and restless in India, you'd want them to be stuck abroad sending remittences back for as long as possible. I wouldn't underestimate the coordination and indifference of labour supplying nations.
- andy_ppp 2y ago
  I hadn’t thought about this, it happens because it works for everyone. Quite grotesque.
jl6 2y ago
I suspect the Indian government doesn’t particularly care and benefits from remittances coming back home.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

It feels like the solution is, to my privacy ideal dismay, biometrics so that you don't need the passport. You show up at a checkpoint, you're identity proofed on the spot, you get to leave, even if you need to be escorted to the plane by your country's in country diplomatic team. I can already show up at a US embassy or consulate anywhere in the world and provide them my passport serial number to have a new one cut in an hour if I've lost mine, the gap to close is not big policy wise. Otherwise, we're relying on "magic government credential" which can be held hostage to hold a human hostage. Silliness. (India maintains the largest biometrics ID system in the world, Aadhaar, containing the records of 1.3B people: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2022/0425/On-biometric-IDs-India-is-a-laboratory-for-the-rest-of-the-world https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2022/0425...)

klysm 2y ago
I don’t think this is a technology problem…
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Agreed! That is my point. The tech already exists, it is paperwork/policy to fix. Someone must have the will to move the needle for the change to occur. If countries sending folks to these places are complacent, certainly, the problem scope and level of effort required expands rapidly.
  - neontomo 2y ago
    while your idea has value, I think the point being made is that this is an issue with views on human rights and liberty, not technology.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      In engaging with enterprise and government stakeholders, I have found that if the technology foundation does not exist, it will be used as an excuse to not execute or improve. So, when an issue is raised, if you have come prepared to show that you can solve the problem with existing primitives or systems in a straightforward manner, it becomes much more challenging to assert the problem cannot be solved. "We can solve this today; if you're asserting we can't, be prepared to prove it before the audience expands to encourage accountability." Whether that audience is higher up the leadership ladder, adversarial peer stakeholders more motivated to succeed, the general public, regulators/legislators, or journalists is situation specific.
      - bradjohnson 2y ago
        The politics of the situation might make a perceived lack of technological solution a convenient scapegoat, that is true. However, from the HN comments section, suggesting a technological solution to a human rights abuse problem doesn't move the needle, because it is not a lack of technology that has caused the human rights abuse. You are responding to a non-issue that hasn't been presented to you and that you have no authority to solve.
      - moralestapia 2y ago
        Wrong. It's the opposite. When there's a will, there's a way. Unfortunately, in this situation, there's no will.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- rdsubhas 2y ago
  This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport. Yes, there are other factors such as bonded labor, indemnities and local laws taking precedence. But this is such an obvious abuse factor, it makes sense to remove it. Of all the ways to do it, whether it's paid lockers and so on – what the parent comment said is still a cheap way.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport. Sure, but the local government wants it that way. They won't be the ones to change it!
    - falcor84 2y ago
      But we're talking about the password issuer (e.g. India), right? They have an interest in protecting their citizens and limiting the power of other local governments to abuse them
      - blackoil 2y ago
        To exit a country, you need to pass their immigration which may require same physical passport on which person has entered. Also, India/Pakistan wouldn't want to antagonize the Saudis as billions in forex flow via these workers. So, it is the cost of being poor.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        No. Saudi Arabia's requirement of a passport to exit the country is what permits this abuse. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/SaudiArabia.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra... > A valid passport is required for U.S. citizens to enter or exit the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
- some_random 2y ago
  It's not a technology problem, but since technology pervades every element of modern society it's an aspect. Passport theft is a significant part of how modern slavery functions internationally, and a technological solution isn't weird to discuss on a technology forum.
glitchc 2y ago
That's not a solution. Those people arrive to the Middle East of their own free will. Everyone in India knows about the abuse, including the labourers and their families. It's just that there are no jobs where they come from, and for all its abuse, the gulf countries pay well. It's desperation to make money that drives them there.
_false 2y ago
> I can already show up at a US embassy or consulate anywhere in the world and provide them my passport serial number to have a new one cut in an hour if I've lost mine Do you have any sources to confirm this?
- selectodude 2y ago
  ??? https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/emergencies/lost-stolen-passport-abroad.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  selectodude's link is canonical imho, but you can also call the Dept. of State Office of Overseas Citizens Services to confirm.

ukoki 2y ago

Simpler to make it the law that foreign workers need to have their passport with them at all times.

andy_ppp 2y ago
Simpler for who?
lostlogin 2y ago
Do you really think that a problem of this scale could exist without it being sanctioned by the government? Saudi wants it this way.
kragen 2y ago
That way, stealing someone's passport not only keeps them from leaving the country, it also makes them subject to arrest without suspicion of any crime? I suppose that could be useful if you're an employer who wants to keep them from leaving your barracks to go shopping for food somewhere that might offer them a better price. But probably the person you were replying to intended to be searching for ways to defend the workers' human rights, not oppress them more efficiently.
- ukoki 2y ago
  Yes but then the worker says to the police "my employer has stolen my passport" and the employer gets in trouble.

Tade0 2y ago

It's going to be harder than expected, as it's sort of a tradition in the region, unless you hail from a particularly powerful country like the US. My father worked in Kuwait as an engineer and his passport was locked in a file cabinet at the office, which was unfortunate because he had to fetch it while avoiding gunfire when Saddam Hussein's forces attacked in 1990. It was worth it though, as the document saved his life when Iraqis mistook him for an American and wanted to execute him on that basis.

maxglute 2y ago

If you're India, and you had surplus of young men who would other wise be unemployed and restless in India, you'd want them to be stuck abroad sending remittences back for as long as possible. I wouldn't underestimate the coordination and indifference of labour supplying nations.

andy_ppp 2y ago
I hadn’t thought about this, it happens because it works for everyone. Quite grotesque.

jl6 2y ago

I suspect the Indian government doesn’t particularly care and benefits from remittances coming back home.