4 ms·

Another frustrating thing with ebooks is that you can't get them in PDF format any more. So much time is spent making a nicely fomatted hardcopy edition, then t

by zargon 2y ago

Another frustrating thing with ebooks is that you can't get them in PDF format any more. So much time is spent making a nicely fomatted hardcopy edition, then the ebook is only available as a terribly auto-converted epub that throws away all the layout and style. Particularly cookbooks, as well as anything technical, I just can't stand how lazy, ugly, and difficult to read the epubs are. All the tooling already exists to produce PDFs identical to the print version, but no, we can't have those.

jiehong 2y ago
I think it's a great point! Perhaps authors could also produce PDFs designed for common tablets as well, and therefore get the exact expected format. I do agree with the author that paged format are difficult with browsers to this day, and I also hope this can improve.
Tepix 2y ago
For me, it's the opposite. Whenever i have the choice, i want EPUB, not PDF. The problem with PDFs is that you don't have a device that is the same size as the original page size in most cases.
- Ma8ee 2y ago
  It depends on what kind of book it is. Fiction EPUB all day. Technical books with figures, tables or code listings, PDF!
  - eleveriven 2y ago
    Exactly! EPUBs are great for novels or anything you just want to read line-by-line
    - lxgr 2y ago
      They're really great for anything I want to read on my phone, including technical books. I'll take a slightly-less-great ePub over a PDF I have to scroll around or use terrible reflow heuristics via some reader any day.
      - zargon 2y ago
        Really, the point is, why can't we have both? I use and enjoy epubs extensively, but also in many contexts I strongly prefer PDF.
        lxgr 2y ago
        Getting a passable PDF from an ePub is probably significantly easier than the reverse, so I'm all for having both, yes! (And please don't charge me twice for the privilege, publishers.)
        eleveriven 2y ago
        Each format has its strengths
      - eleveriven 2y ago
        PDFs on smaller screens - it’s like wrestling with the page just to read a single line
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  One question: Why do people make PDFs in A4 format? Wouldn't it make better sense to start making them in A5 or A6, so that they could be better read on e-readers, phones, and on part of a computer screen (which is landscape oriented)?
  - ileonichwiesz 2y ago
    Surely the only difference between an A4 PDF and an A6 one would be text size?
    - carlosjobim 2y ago
      Yes, exactly. That's what matters.
    - dagw 2y ago
      Depends which parameter you choose to hold fixed. You could shrink your text and keep the layout and page count or keep your text size fixed and increase the page count. If people were doing layout for a fixed A5 or A6 size they will probably make many different choices compared to laying out for A4.
    - rjmunro 2y ago
      I think the point is that if you are designing with that size in mind you may make different decisions about the column layout etc. I would have thought that a PDF of a book would normally be made in the size of the physical book, which could be A4, but usually isn't (at least not when I look at my bookshelves).
    - Maken 2y ago
      Text size decides everything: paragraph size, heading breaks, figure placement, etc.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
      Probably also column layout. 2-column documents are fine for A4 sizes, but terrible for A6 or most e-reader screen sizes. Scroll down, then up & across, then down, then across, then repeat. Versus just scroll down or just turn pages.
- Paul_Clayton 2y ago
  Another problematic aspect is if one has poor eyesight and wishes to use a larger font size. One ends up having to scroll horizontally for each line of text for single column pages. For two-column pages, one has to scroll back a page after reading the first column. Sometimes one can use a landscape-oriented display to avoid horizontal scrolling, but even if the same word count fits on the screen I seem to be annoyed by the low line count. Providing large type and huge type PDFs would not entirely solve this problem as sometimes even one with poor eyesight might prefer a smaller font for scanning/skimming. Having to acquire two PDFs and switch between them based on mode of use seems suboptimal. Fixed paged presentation has significant advantages for familiar reference material; some people seem to have a spatial memory that makes finding specific content by flipping pages faster than trying several search phrases (with the occasional benefit of serendipity). Poetry often benefits from not reflowing lines and page breaking within a stanza is often more jarring than within a paragraph of prose. Yet a reader might prefer inferior typography over having to use a magnifying glass or carry a very large display. One might be able to get some of the advantages of paged media for figures and tables by having header (or footer) pop-up links to such content when it is on the same "page" as the displayed text. This is not as low effort as moving one's eyes, but it might be better than inlined presentation on a small (relative to font size) display. Even with print, there would be times when breaking the text to fit a figure is more disruptive than having the figure on a separate page. There would also be times when all the relevant figures would not fit on the same page as the related text. Having a separate booklet of illustrations might make going back and forth between text and illustration easier, similar to having a lexicon or commentary open while reading. However, that also introduces position tracking in another book and other inconveniences. Even when my vision was better, reading academic papers distributed as PDFs (usually 2-column) on a computer screen was less enjoyable than reading similar material in a reflowable format. Academic papers also do not seem to benefit as much from pagination as other writings.
donatj 2y ago
I agree, I absolutely hate reading basically everything other than novels/non-fiction narratives in epub. All the work they did laying out the pages is just thrown away! Trying to read any sort of instructional book as an epub is straight up infuriating. I work for a children's reading platform, and the book publishers universally send us PDFs of everything. We have a bespoke system to convert the PDFs into SVG for higher flexibility and added interactivity. Literal Kids board books are getting a better treatment!
- eleveriven 2y ago
  It really shows that when there’s care taken with formatting, it makes a huge difference in how engaging and accessible the material is
globular-toast 2y ago
Part of this is that books and screens are not interchangeable pieces of technology. Books are still supreme when it comes to reference material and lookup speed but each page needs static typesetting. Screens are more fragile, expensive, generally smaller, with lower contrast and/or resolution, but they allow a fully flexible display with variable font sizes, the ability to scroll half way between pages etc. A PDF on a screen is all of the downsides of books with none of the upsides of screens.
pentagrama 2y ago
I love the PDF format in many ways. Its adoption is widespread, so you can send it with confidence. It's an ISO standard, "self-contained" (a single file, unlike HTML). However, something I’d love for the specification to incorporate is responsive design, which would significantly improve accessibility given the proliferation of mobile devices.

by zargon 2y ago

jiehong 2y ago

I think it's a great point! Perhaps authors could also produce PDFs designed for common tablets as well, and therefore get the exact expected format. I do agree with the author that paged format are difficult with browsers to this day, and I also hope this can improve.

Tepix 2y ago

For me, it's the opposite. Whenever i have the choice, i want EPUB, not PDF. The problem with PDFs is that you don't have a device that is the same size as the original page size in most cases.

Ma8ee 2y ago
It depends on what kind of book it is. Fiction EPUB all day. Technical books with figures, tables or code listings, PDF!
- eleveriven 2y ago
  Exactly! EPUBs are great for novels or anything you just want to read line-by-line
  - lxgr 2y ago
    They're really great for anything I want to read on my phone, including technical books. I'll take a slightly-less-great ePub over a PDF I have to scroll around or use terrible reflow heuristics via some reader any day.
    - zargon 2y ago
      Really, the point is, why can't we have both? I use and enjoy epubs extensively, but also in many contexts I strongly prefer PDF.
      - lxgr 2y ago
        Getting a passable PDF from an ePub is probably significantly easier than the reverse, so I'm all for having both, yes! (And please don't charge me twice for the privilege, publishers.)
      - eleveriven 2y ago
        Each format has its strengths
    - eleveriven 2y ago
      PDFs on smaller screens - it’s like wrestling with the page just to read a single line
carlosjobim 2y ago
One question: Why do people make PDFs in A4 format? Wouldn't it make better sense to start making them in A5 or A6, so that they could be better read on e-readers, phones, and on part of a computer screen (which is landscape oriented)?
- ileonichwiesz 2y ago
  Surely the only difference between an A4 PDF and an A6 one would be text size?
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Yes, exactly. That's what matters.
  - dagw 2y ago
    Depends which parameter you choose to hold fixed. You could shrink your text and keep the layout and page count or keep your text size fixed and increase the page count. If people were doing layout for a fixed A5 or A6 size they will probably make many different choices compared to laying out for A4.
  - rjmunro 2y ago
    I think the point is that if you are designing with that size in mind you may make different decisions about the column layout etc. I would have thought that a PDF of a book would normally be made in the size of the physical book, which could be A4, but usually isn't (at least not when I look at my bookshelves).
  - Maken 2y ago
    Text size decides everything: paragraph size, heading breaks, figure placement, etc.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
    Probably also column layout. 2-column documents are fine for A4 sizes, but terrible for A6 or most e-reader screen sizes. Scroll down, then up & across, then down, then across, then repeat. Versus just scroll down or just turn pages.
Paul_Clayton 2y ago
Another problematic aspect is if one has poor eyesight and wishes to use a larger font size. One ends up having to scroll horizontally for each line of text for single column pages. For two-column pages, one has to scroll back a page after reading the first column. Sometimes one can use a landscape-oriented display to avoid horizontal scrolling, but even if the same word count fits on the screen I seem to be annoyed by the low line count. Providing large type and huge type PDFs would not entirely solve this problem as sometimes even one with poor eyesight might prefer a smaller font for scanning/skimming. Having to acquire two PDFs and switch between them based on mode of use seems suboptimal. Fixed paged presentation has significant advantages for familiar reference material; some people seem to have a spatial memory that makes finding specific content by flipping pages faster than trying several search phrases (with the occasional benefit of serendipity). Poetry often benefits from not reflowing lines and page breaking within a stanza is often more jarring than within a paragraph of prose. Yet a reader might prefer inferior typography over having to use a magnifying glass or carry a very large display. One might be able to get some of the advantages of paged media for figures and tables by having header (or footer) pop-up links to such content when it is on the same "page" as the displayed text. This is not as low effort as moving one's eyes, but it might be better than inlined presentation on a small (relative to font size) display. Even with print, there would be times when breaking the text to fit a figure is more disruptive than having the figure on a separate page. There would also be times when all the relevant figures would not fit on the same page as the related text. Having a separate booklet of illustrations might make going back and forth between text and illustration easier, similar to having a lexicon or commentary open while reading. However, that also introduces position tracking in another book and other inconveniences. Even when my vision was better, reading academic papers distributed as PDFs (usually 2-column) on a computer screen was less enjoyable than reading similar material in a reflowable format. Academic papers also do not seem to benefit as much from pagination as other writings.

donatj 2y ago

I agree, I absolutely hate reading basically everything other than novels/non-fiction narratives in epub. All the work they did laying out the pages is just thrown away! Trying to read any sort of instructional book as an epub is straight up infuriating. I work for a children's reading platform, and the book publishers universally send us PDFs of everything. We have a bespoke system to convert the PDFs into SVG for higher flexibility and added interactivity. Literal Kids board books are getting a better treatment!

eleveriven 2y ago
It really shows that when there’s care taken with formatting, it makes a huge difference in how engaging and accessible the material is

globular-toast 2y ago

Part of this is that books and screens are not interchangeable pieces of technology. Books are still supreme when it comes to reference material and lookup speed but each page needs static typesetting. Screens are more fragile, expensive, generally smaller, with lower contrast and/or resolution, but they allow a fully flexible display with variable font sizes, the ability to scroll half way between pages etc. A PDF on a screen is all of the downsides of books with none of the upsides of screens.

pentagrama 2y ago

I love the PDF format in many ways. Its adoption is widespread, so you can send it with confidence. It's an ISO standard, "self-contained" (a single file, unlike HTML). However, something I’d love for the specification to incorporate is responsive design, which would significantly improve accessibility given the proliferation of mobile devices.