5 ms·

I'd like us to take a little nuance when it comes to "middle class". tech workers rarely are "middle class". not even "upper middle class". We tend to have a

by froh 2y ago

I'd like us to take a little nuance when it comes to "middle class". tech workers rarely are "middle class". not even "upper middle class". We tend to have a contorted idea of real income percentiles. https://www.arm-und-reich.de/alle-rechner/ https://www.arm-und-reich.de/alle-rechner/

mgraupner 2y ago
Try buying a decent house in Germany with 4000€ netto, which puts you in the top 10% income bracket. Then come back and tell me, you're a rich person.
- mathverse 2y ago
  German companies pay peanuts to tech workers and lost the tech decade. No surprise here.
  - mrmlz 2y ago
    And German salaries are better than Swedish salaries ;(
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      How so? Would you care to exemplify? I see a lot more unicorns in Sweden than Germany.
- Certhas 2y ago
  Uh. Easily. Done it with considerably less. Your idea of decent might be a bit off... That's not to say that buying in Germany is absurdly difficult and expensive. It absolutely is. But if you think 4k net doesn't make you well off in average Germany you're really extremely bubbled. You won't be buying in downtown Munich, but that's very far from average Germany, and you could definitely be buying within half an hour of decent public transport to downtown munich.
  - mgraupner 2y ago
    "You won't be buying in downtown Munich, but that's very far from average Germany, and you could definitely be buying within half an hour of decent public transport to downtown Munich." - Please show me an offer for a decent house in this region.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      "It's very easy to buy something in Munich. Just inherit." /s
    - Certhas 2y ago
      https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/154724307 https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/154724307 The mortgage is estimated at 1600€ / month, S-Bahn to Hauptbahnhof is 22 minutes. It's not super comfortable (as you'll be paying bills on top) but absolutely doable on a single 4k€ net income. It took me about 2 minutes to find this. Edit: To note, I claimed it's easily doable in the Berlin area, not in the Munich area. In the outskirts of Berlin 4k Net is more comfortably doable. Berlin is also geographically larger, so travel times will start being significantly above 30 minutes, too, though.
      - lnsru 2y ago
        Fail. This property is rented to 2 families. So it’s price reduced by at least €200k compared to an empty property. You’ll never get out 2 families at once as long as they pay rent.
        Certhas 2y ago
        If you buy for yourself you can. If you buy for investment, then not.
        lnsru 2y ago
        That’s the nice theory. This place is rented since 1995 for cheap. No way to buy it for yourself. That’s why the price is low.
Wytwwww 2y ago
Depends on on how you define what the middle class is. Historically "middle class" never meant e.g. the middle 50% but rather the somewhat comfortable, well-off people who have assets but still have to work for a living (everyone ranging from small/medium business owners to doctors, lawyers, (sometimes) civil servants, high skilled professionals etc. The average/median person was always dirt-poor and struggling to survive. Of course in the developed countries that has changed quite a bit in the last 60+ years. Still, since it feels like we are slowly reverting to the pre WW2 status quo, I'm not sure we shouldn't entirely base it on population percentiles (instead of using some more "arbitrary" wealth/income cut-off that's adjusted by inequality)

by froh 2y ago

mgraupner 2y ago

Try buying a decent house in Germany with 4000€ netto, which puts you in the top 10% income bracket. Then come back and tell me, you're a rich person.

mathverse 2y ago
German companies pay peanuts to tech workers and lost the tech decade. No surprise here.
- mrmlz 2y ago
  And German salaries are better than Swedish salaries ;(
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    How so? Would you care to exemplify? I see a lot more unicorns in Sweden than Germany.
Certhas 2y ago
Uh. Easily. Done it with considerably less. Your idea of decent might be a bit off... That's not to say that buying in Germany is absurdly difficult and expensive. It absolutely is. But if you think 4k net doesn't make you well off in average Germany you're really extremely bubbled. You won't be buying in downtown Munich, but that's very far from average Germany, and you could definitely be buying within half an hour of decent public transport to downtown munich.
- mgraupner 2y ago
  "You won't be buying in downtown Munich, but that's very far from average Germany, and you could definitely be buying within half an hour of decent public transport to downtown Munich." - Please show me an offer for a decent house in this region.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    "It's very easy to buy something in Munich. Just inherit." /s
  - Certhas 2y ago
    https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/154724307 https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/154724307 The mortgage is estimated at 1600€ / month, S-Bahn to Hauptbahnhof is 22 minutes. It's not super comfortable (as you'll be paying bills on top) but absolutely doable on a single 4k€ net income. It took me about 2 minutes to find this. Edit: To note, I claimed it's easily doable in the Berlin area, not in the Munich area. In the outskirts of Berlin 4k Net is more comfortably doable. Berlin is also geographically larger, so travel times will start being significantly above 30 minutes, too, though.
    - lnsru 2y ago
      Fail. This property is rented to 2 families. So it’s price reduced by at least €200k compared to an empty property. You’ll never get out 2 families at once as long as they pay rent.
      - Certhas 2y ago
        If you buy for yourself you can. If you buy for investment, then not.
        lnsru 2y ago
        That’s the nice theory. This place is rented since 1995 for cheap. No way to buy it for yourself. That’s why the price is low.

Wytwwww 2y ago

Depends on on how you define what the middle class is. Historically "middle class" never meant e.g. the middle 50% but rather the somewhat comfortable, well-off people who have assets but still have to work for a living (everyone ranging from small/medium business owners to doctors, lawyers, (sometimes) civil servants, high skilled professionals etc. The average/median person was always dirt-poor and struggling to survive. Of course in the developed countries that has changed quite a bit in the last 60+ years. Still, since it feels like we are slowly reverting to the pre WW2 status quo, I'm not sure we shouldn't entirely base it on population percentiles (instead of using some more "arbitrary" wealth/income cut-off that's adjusted by inequality)